Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Nicolas Miller
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000352A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is a program 00:30 bringing you news, views, discussion, 00:32 up-to-date information on religious liberty events 00:35 both in the United States and around the world. 00:37 My name Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine 00:41 and my guest on this program is Dr. Nicholas Miller, 00:44 lawyer, professor, author, 00:48 you're sort of a man for all seasons 00:51 and a religious liberty leader too. 00:53 Yes. 00:54 There's many things that we could discuss 00:56 but let's hit what's really in the headlines at the moment. 01:00 Refuge crisis is clearly facing the world 01:03 and the new U.S. administration 01:06 I think have put the cat among the pigeons 01:09 by putting out an executive order 01:11 that limits certain countries' refugee ability 01:16 and the charges that this is prejudiced situation 01:20 on religious identity. 01:22 But there is some sort of religious discrimination 01:24 taking place. 01:26 And we should note a couple of things, 01:28 the order puts a limit on all refugees for 120 days, 01:33 and then beyond that refugees 01:35 from seven named Middle Eastern countries... 01:38 Yeah, and it doesn't say in the order itself no Muslims 01:42 or only Christians or doesn't say that. 01:44 No, that's absolutely right. 01:46 And it should be noted that while the seven countries 01:49 that are listed are Muslim countries. 01:52 These are the same seven countries 01:54 that under the Obama administration, 01:56 they were on a concern list 01:58 and a limitation of immigrant list. 02:01 And there are many Muslim majority countries. 02:05 In fact, Indonesia had it, 02:06 it has the most Muslims in the world 02:08 that aren't on the list. 02:09 So it's not on the face of it 02:12 an obvious attempt to keep all Muslims out. 02:16 And yet there's more to it than that, isn't it? 02:18 Well, we know from the election that there's strong sensibility 02:24 growing against probably even directly against Islam. 02:28 And I don't about you, 02:30 but it seems to me on one level 02:31 we could hardly blame the average person 02:33 who's not very religiously literate 02:35 because there is violence 02:37 that directly comes from Islamic sources lately. 02:40 I mean that's just a plain fact, isn't it? 02:42 That's right. 02:44 So it really hinges on whether you see this 02:46 as representative of all Muslims 02:49 and even if it were, 02:51 then do you act in a prejudicial way 02:54 against a whole group? 02:56 So this is a fair way of putting it. 02:57 Is this, are the terrorists actors 03:00 that represent 03:02 the logical implications of Islam 03:04 or are they extremist elements on the fringes of Islam? 03:09 And, you know, I think 03:10 Christians should be a little bit sympathetic 03:12 to this before 9/11 the largest terrorist attack 03:16 on American soil was by Timothy McVeigh 03:20 at Oklahoma City 03:22 who had been influenced by the Christian identity, 03:25 white area... 03:26 Well, this was payback for the government action 03:28 against the Davidians Waco religious group. 03:33 Waco Christian religious group though, 03:35 and there have been other, you know, the K.K.K. 03:38 claims a Christian identity. 03:40 So as Christians, we know that we have extremists in our wings 03:44 and we don't hold all Christians accountable 03:46 for that. 03:47 And I think in a similar fashion 03:49 given 1.7 billion Muslims, 03:51 many of them living overseas the vast, 03:54 vast majority 99 point something percent plus 03:58 are peace-loving, 04:00 law abiding citizens of the West. 04:02 Right. 04:04 Yeah, I would put it another way 04:05 it's, human beings, 04:08 you know, come in the wide variety, 04:10 but I think the vast majority of human beings 04:12 don't mean ill toward their fellows. 04:15 I think that's true. 04:16 I have a probably different view on this. 04:17 I do believe that what's happening 04:20 with the extremists is that the violent Islamists 04:26 is not an aberration of Islam, 04:28 it's tied up to its very history. 04:30 And I think it's connected very much to Quranic truth 04:34 and the Hadiths that most Muslims buy into. 04:38 But, of course, most Muslims would not do such things. 04:42 But my view is, yes, we need to recognize it 04:44 for what it is but even so, 04:46 that's not reason to be prejudiced against all Muslims 04:51 nor to restrict the right for them 04:53 to believe their faith. 04:55 But as a Christian there's a lot of things 04:56 I could point to especially... 04:58 I know I know, okay, I'll put it another way. 05:00 ..about killing... 05:01 There's a big discussion about freedom of speech 05:03 in the United States. 05:04 Right. 05:05 And people object to some sorts of speech, 05:08 but you know very well you have to protect bad speech, 05:14 I mean the speech that's offensive 05:16 to uphold the principle. 05:18 You don't allow, the freedom of speech means nothing 05:20 if it only covers a good speech or a pleasant speech. 05:24 That's right. 05:25 It's the speech that incites hatred or whatever, 05:30 so I believe it's the same in religion. 05:32 I don't have to necessarily agree 05:36 with Islam or Mormonism or whatever 05:40 to be willing to fight to the death 05:42 for their right to believe what they believe. 05:45 Right, but there's a difference between speech and violence... 05:47 Right, and so any religion 05:49 whether it's Islam or Christianity 05:51 if it veers toward violence, 05:52 there's civil laws that deal with it, we cant allow that. 05:55 But to say that one religion 05:57 is much more strongly predicated 05:59 towards violence is obviously gonna cause people to say, 06:02 well, maybe we shouldn't let these people in the country. 06:04 Well, let me play the devil's advocate, 06:06 I'll make a statement to you. 06:07 I think Christianity is a little more prone 06:11 toward violence than say Buddhism. 06:13 Buddhism, yeah, I think that's right. 06:15 Which is more meditative and introspective. 06:17 Right. 06:18 That is what it is. 06:19 Yeah, and certainly the history of the West would suggest that. 06:23 But let's come back to President Trump's 06:25 order for a moment. 06:26 You're right, which is really the discussion of the moment 06:28 that's scaring a lot of people up. 06:29 While it doesn't single out Muslims by name, 06:33 it does have a very interesting clause in it 06:35 that says, it identifies these seven countries 06:38 which are all Muslim majority countries 06:41 and then it says, 06:42 religious minorities in these countries 06:46 which are persecuted shall be given preference 06:49 for immigration. 06:51 So because these are all Muslim majority countries, 06:55 clearly a reference to protecting minorities 06:58 is a reference to favoring non-Muslim religions. 07:02 Well, it's very unfortunate 07:04 that it was expressed that way now, 07:06 but that has, as you know, always been the case. 07:09 No matter what country someone's a refugee from, 07:11 that's the point. 07:13 If you are being persecuted by the majority, 07:15 that calls for an asylum. 07:17 But can majority not be persecuted by a minority? 07:20 In fact, this happens in some countries 07:22 you remember countries 07:26 where the minority is sometimes in charge and can... 07:31 And thanks to the... 07:32 Well, Iraq... 07:33 ..the imperialist... 07:35 Iraq was like this too, wasn't it with the Baath party? 07:36 So effectively it is an attempt to discriminate 07:40 based on religious lines. 07:41 I think we see through this on the face of it 07:45 this is very logical prohibition 07:48 or coercion at the moment. 07:50 But behind it lies a larger prejudice I think. 07:53 I think so, and I think that once the courts examine it 07:57 that they will have constitutional problems 07:59 especially as they look at the rhetoric 08:02 that surrounded the implementation 08:04 and signing of it. 08:05 But even if the courts find that way 08:08 I think we're in a very dangerous 08:10 and have been for decades 08:11 it's nothing to do with just the last few weeks, 08:13 the dangerous dynamic with this rad... 08:16 this increase in radical violence 08:18 happens to be Islam. 08:20 It has been different periods of history... 08:24 Crusade position, Christianity... 08:27 I don't think getting much license 08:29 from the original text 08:31 but still the Christian community 08:33 were very empowered to violent acts 08:37 towards other groups. 08:39 That's right. 08:40 But, you know, we're in a phase now that 08:42 if I had to date it from anything it's us, 08:46 our proxies, 08:49 during the fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan 08:52 we basically stirred the, fanned the fire of extremism. 08:56 Yep, that's true. 08:58 And we so did the wind 08:59 and we're reaping the whirlwind. 09:01 Well, there's a lot of alternative facts 09:04 that are circulating about the question 09:07 of Christian refugees in the past. 09:09 One of the claims that's being made 09:11 is that Christians under the Obama administration, 09:15 Christian refugees have been kept out 09:17 of America and Muslims have been preferred. 09:19 But the simple facts 09:21 Pew Research Center notes that in 2016, 09:25 for instance, there were about 80 something thousand refugees 09:30 allowed in from outside America 09:33 and a slight edge was found towards Muslims. 09:37 But it was about 50-50, it was about 38,000 Muslims 09:41 37,000 Christians. 09:43 And given that Christians are only 5% of the population 09:47 in the Middle East... 09:49 Well, the troubles in Iraq 09:50 were not equal opportunity troubles... 09:52 They don't fully represent... 09:54 The minorities were persecuted and even now under ISIS 10:00 it's not just Christians 10:01 but even some Islamic minorities, 10:03 but the Yazidis and other and, of course, 10:07 the Kurds which are an ethnic group, 10:10 not so much a religious group. 10:11 But, you know, there have been persecutions 10:14 but they're the minorities. 10:15 It's not the mainline Muslim group other than displacement 10:19 because of war itself... 10:20 But my point is... 10:22 .. wouldn't have a need for it. 10:23 ..that America has not been discriminating 10:25 against Christian refuges. 10:26 And if there was a discrimination, 10:27 it was in the early days. 10:30 For quite a long time the U.S. wouldn't take anybody 10:32 and I know I'm originally from Australia... 10:34 No refugees. 10:35 But Australia was taking them in when the U.S. wasn't. 10:37 Right, but it wasn't but it wasn't 10:38 based on religious discrimination, 10:40 we weren't just taking anybody. 10:42 And some have complained that the Syrian refugees, 10:45 there's a higher percentage of Muslims than Christians 10:49 in the underlying population. 10:51 But again those requesting immigration 10:56 to the U.S. happened to be a much higher Muslim segment. 10:59 There's some thought that the U.N. is discriminating 11:02 in those they recommend for resettlement. 11:04 But they are not discriminating in that way 11:08 from refugees from Iraq. 11:10 It appears that Lebanon 11:13 has a Christian government in leadership 11:15 and it seems that many of the Christian 11:17 refugees from Syria have family and friends in Lebanon 11:21 and they're stopping there 11:22 and therefore not needing to seek asylum 11:26 further in the West. 11:28 So where do you think this is going then? 11:30 Well... 11:31 We've agreed that it's not as bad as it seems. 11:34 We've agreed the terms, the technical terms, 11:37 are really not out of the norm, but maybe this underlying... 11:42 Well, you know, we are... 11:44 Sentiment is not good. 11:45 If this is allowed to stand and if the fans are flamed 11:49 towards radical Islam to include all Muslims, 11:53 we will be creating the stepping stones 11:55 for allowing the government to make policy choices 11:58 based on religious identity. 12:00 And ultimately that's not a good thing 12:02 if we continue down that pathway. 12:05 Well, you know, one parallel that I haven't read anyway 12:07 but I know history, 12:09 and we're not paralleling anyone else's history 12:12 but human behavior tends to repeat. 12:16 You know, in the German move against the Jews 12:18 that culminated in World War, 12:21 during the World War II and the Nazi regime. 12:24 But, you know, the anti-German sentiment 12:26 in Germany 12:27 wasn't a Nazi concoction but as that heightened, 12:32 there were actually a few incidents, 12:34 believe it or not, of Jews acting violently 12:36 against the regime and that that was used as... 12:41 Pretext or... 12:42 Pretext to move against the whole community 12:44 and I'm very afraid that 12:46 that's the dynamic we're heading into here. 12:49 These protests that we see from the Left Wing side 12:51 against the administration. 12:53 Protesting is fine, 12:54 but violence would be extremely counterproductive. 12:57 Right, I mean, 12:59 and we're certain to have a few more mass killings 13:03 and so on, and how will they respond? 13:05 We'll be back after a short break. 13:07 Stay with us. 13:09 And we'll continue this discussion 13:10 of breaking news basically. |
Revised 2017-04-06