Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
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bringing you
news, views, discussion,
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up-to-date information
on religious liberty events
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both in the United
States and around the world.
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My name Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine
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and my guest on this
program is Dr. Nicholas Miller,
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lawyer, professor, author,
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you're sort of a
man for all seasons
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and a religious
liberty leader too.
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Yes.
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There's many things
that we could discuss
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but let's hit what's really
in the headlines at the moment.
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Refuge crisis is
clearly facing the world
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and the new U.S. administration
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I think have put the
cat among the pigeons
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by putting out
an executive order
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that limits certain
countries' refugee ability
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and the charges that
this is prejudiced situation
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on religious identity.
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But there is some sort
of religious discrimination
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taking place.
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And we should note
a couple of things,
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the order puts a limit on
all refugees for 120 days,
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and then beyond that refugees
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from seven named
Middle Eastern countries...
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Yeah, and it doesn't say
in the order itself no Muslims
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or only Christians
or doesn't say that.
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No, that's absolutely right.
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And it should be noted
that while the seven countries
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that are listed
are Muslim countries.
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These are the
same seven countries
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that under the
Obama administration,
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they were on a concern list
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and a limitation
of immigrant list.
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And there are many
Muslim majority countries.
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In fact, Indonesia had it,
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it has the most
Muslims in the world
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that aren't on the list.
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So it's not on the face of it
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an obvious attempt
to keep all Muslims out.
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And yet there's more
to it than that, isn't it?
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Well, we know from the election
that there's strong sensibility
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growing against probably
even directly against Islam.
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And I don't about you,
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but it seems to me on one level
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we could hardly
blame the average person
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who's not very
religiously literate
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because there is violence
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that directly comes
from Islamic sources lately.
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I mean that's just a
plain fact, isn't it?
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That's right.
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So it really hinges
on whether you see this
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as representative of all Muslims
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and even if it were,
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then do you act
in a prejudicial way
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against a whole group?
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So this is a fair
way of putting it.
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Is this, are the
terrorists actors
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that represent
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the logical
implications of Islam
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or are they extremist elements
on the fringes of Islam?
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And, you know, I think
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Christians should be
a little bit sympathetic
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to this before 9/11 the
largest terrorist attack
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on American soil
was by Timothy McVeigh
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at Oklahoma City
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who had been influenced
by the Christian identity,
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white area...
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Well, this was payback
for the government action
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against the
Davidians Waco religious group.
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Waco Christian
religious group though,
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and there have been
other, you know, the K.K.K.
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claims a Christian identity.
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So as Christians, we know that
we have extremists in our wings
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and we don't hold all
Christians accountable
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for that.
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And I think in a similar fashion
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given 1.7 billion Muslims,
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many of them
living overseas the vast,
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vast majority 99
point something percent plus
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are peace-loving,
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law abiding
citizens of the West.
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Right.
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Yeah, I would put it another way
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it's, human beings,
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you know, come
in the wide variety,
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but I think the vast
majority of human beings
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don't mean ill
toward their fellows.
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I think that's true.
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I have a probably
different view on this.
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I do believe
that what's happening
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with the extremists is
that the violent Islamists
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is not an aberration of Islam,
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it's tied up to
its very history.
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And I think it's connected
very much to Quranic truth
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and the Hadiths that
most Muslims buy into.
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But, of course, most Muslims
would not do such things.
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But my view is, yes,
we need to recognize it
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for what it is but even so,
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that's not reason to be
prejudiced against all Muslims
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nor to restrict
the right for them
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to believe their faith.
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But as a Christian
there's a lot of things
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I could point to especially...
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I know I know, okay,
I'll put it another way.
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..about killing...
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There's a big discussion
about freedom of speech
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in the United States.
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Right.
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And people object to
some sorts of speech,
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but you know very well you
have to protect bad speech,
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I mean the
speech that's offensive
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to uphold the principle.
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You don't allow, the
freedom of speech means nothing
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if it only covers a good
speech or a pleasant speech.
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That's right.
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It's the speech that
incites hatred or whatever,
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so I believe it's
the same in religion.
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I don't have to
necessarily agree
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with Islam or
Mormonism or whatever
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to be willing to
fight to the death
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for their right to
believe what they believe.
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Right, but there's a difference
between speech and violence...
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Right, and so any religion
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whether it's
Islam or Christianity
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if it veers toward violence,
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there's civil laws that deal
with it, we cant allow that.
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But to say that one religion
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is much more strongly predicated
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towards violence is obviously
gonna cause people to say,
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well, maybe we shouldn't
let these people in the country.
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Well, let me play
the devil's advocate,
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I'll make a statement to you.
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I think Christianity
is a little more prone
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toward violence
than say Buddhism.
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Buddhism, yeah, I
think that's right.
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Which is more
meditative and introspective.
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Right.
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That is what it is.
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Yeah, and certainly the history
of the West would suggest that.
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But let's come back
to President Trump's
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order for a moment.
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You're right, which is really
the discussion of the moment
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that's scaring a
lot of people up.
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While it doesn't
single out Muslims by name,
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it does have a very
interesting clause in it
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that says, it
identifies these seven countries
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which are all
Muslim majority countries
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and then it says,
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religious
minorities in these countries
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which are persecuted
shall be given preference
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for immigration.
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So because these are all
Muslim majority countries,
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clearly a reference
to protecting minorities
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is a reference to
favoring non-Muslim religions.
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Well, it's very unfortunate
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that it was
expressed that way now,
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but that has, as you
know, always been the case.
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No matter what country
someone's a refugee from,
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that's the point.
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If you are being
persecuted by the majority,
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that calls for an asylum.
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But can majority not be
persecuted by a minority?
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In fact, this
happens in some countries
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you remember countries
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where the minority is
sometimes in charge and can...
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And thanks to the...
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Well, Iraq...
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..the imperialist...
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Iraq was like this too,
wasn't it with the Baath party?
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So effectively it is
an attempt to discriminate
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based on religious lines.
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I think we see
through this on the face of it
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this is very logical prohibition
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or coercion at the moment.
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But behind it lies a
larger prejudice I think.
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I think so, and I think
that once the courts examine it
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that they will have
constitutional problems
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especially as they
look at the rhetoric
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that surrounded
the implementation
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and signing of it.
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But even if the
courts find that way
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I think we're
in a very dangerous
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and have been for decades
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it's nothing to do with
just the last few weeks,
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the dangerous
dynamic with this rad...
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this increase
in radical violence
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happens to be Islam.
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It has been
different periods of history...
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Crusade
position, Christianity...
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I don't think
getting much license
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from the original text
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but still the
Christian community
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were very
empowered to violent acts
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towards other groups.
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That's right.
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But, you know,
we're in a phase now that
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if I had to date it
from anything it's us,
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our proxies,
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during the fight against
the Soviets in Afghanistan
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we basically stirred the,
fanned the fire of extremism.
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Yep, that's true.
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And we so did the wind
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and we're reaping the whirlwind.
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Well, there's a lot
of alternative facts
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that are
circulating about the question
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of Christian
refugees in the past.
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One of the
claims that's being made
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is that Christians under
the Obama administration,
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Christian
refugees have been kept out
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of America and
Muslims have been preferred.
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But the simple facts
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Pew Research
Center notes that in 2016,
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for instance, there were about
80 something thousand refugees
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allowed in from outside America
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and a slight edge was
found towards Muslims.
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But it was about 50-50,
it was about 38,000 Muslims
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37,000 Christians.
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And given that Christians
are only 5% of the population
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in the Middle East...
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Well, the troubles in Iraq
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were not equal
opportunity troubles...
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They don't fully represent...
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The minorities were persecuted
and even now under ISIS
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it's not just Christians
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but even some
Islamic minorities,
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but the Yazidis and
other and, of course,
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the Kurds which
are an ethnic group,
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not so much a religious group.
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But, you know, there
have been persecutions
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but they're the minorities.
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It's not the mainline Muslim
group other than displacement
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because of war itself...
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But my point is...
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.. wouldn't have a need for it.
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..that America has
not been discriminating
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against Christian refuges.
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And if there was
a discrimination,
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it was in the early days.
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For quite a long time the
U.S. wouldn't take anybody
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and I know I'm
originally from Australia...
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No refugees.
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But Australia was taking
them in when the U.S. wasn't.
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Right, but it
wasn't but it wasn't
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based on
religious discrimination,
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we weren't just taking anybody.
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And some have complained
that the Syrian refugees,
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there's a higher percentage
of Muslims than Christians
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in the underlying population.
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But again those
requesting immigration
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to the U.S. happened to be
a much higher Muslim segment.
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There's some thought that
the U.N. is discriminating
00:10:59.85\00:11:02.12
in those they
recommend for resettlement.
00:11:02.16\00:11:04.83
But they are not
discriminating in that way
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from refugees from Iraq.
00:11:08.43\00:11:10.27
It appears that Lebanon
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has a Christian
government in leadership
00:11:13.54\00:11:15.40
and it seems that
many of the Christian
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refugees from Syria have
family and friends in Lebanon
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and they're stopping there
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and therefore not
needing to seek asylum
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further in the West.
00:11:26.21\00:11:28.22
So where do you
think this is going then?
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Well...
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We've agreed that it's
not as bad as it seems.
00:11:31.39\00:11:34.19
We've agreed the
terms, the technical terms,
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are really not out of the norm,
but maybe this underlying...
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Well, you know, we are...
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Sentiment is not good.
00:11:44.17\00:11:45.50
If this is allowed to
stand and if the fans are flamed
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towards radical Islam
to include all Muslims,
00:11:49.14\00:11:53.17
we will be
creating the stepping stones
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for allowing the government
to make policy choices
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based on religious identity.
00:11:58.75\00:12:00.88
And ultimately
that's not a good thing
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if we continue
down that pathway.
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Well, you know, one parallel
that I haven't read anyway
00:12:05.49\00:12:07.56
but I know history,
00:12:07.59\00:12:09.36
and we're not paralleling
anyone else's history
00:12:09.39\00:12:12.33
but human
behavior tends to repeat.
00:12:12.36\00:12:16.16
You know, in the
German move against the Jews
00:12:16.20\00:12:18.83
that culminated in World War,
00:12:18.87\00:12:21.64
during the World War
II and the Nazi regime.
00:12:21.67\00:12:24.31
But, you know, the
anti-German sentiment
00:12:24.34\00:12:26.57
in Germany
00:12:26.61\00:12:27.94
wasn't a Nazi concoction
but as that heightened,
00:12:27.98\00:12:32.71
there were
actually a few incidents,
00:12:32.75\00:12:34.58
believe it or not,
of Jews acting violently
00:12:34.62\00:12:36.92
against the regime and
that that was used as...
00:12:36.95\00:12:41.29
Pretext or...
00:12:41.32\00:12:42.66
Pretext to move
against the whole community
00:12:42.69\00:12:44.73
and I'm very afraid that
00:12:44.76\00:12:46.70
that's the dynamic
we're heading into here.
00:12:46.73\00:12:49.53
These protests that we
see from the Left Wing side
00:12:49.56\00:12:51.93
against the administration.
00:12:51.97\00:12:53.30
Protesting is fine,
00:12:53.34\00:12:54.80
but violence would be
extremely counterproductive.
00:12:54.84\00:12:57.77
Right, I mean,
00:12:57.81\00:12:59.77
and we're certain to
have a few more mass killings
00:12:59.81\00:13:03.04
and so on, and
how will they respond?
00:13:03.08\00:13:05.95
We'll be back
after a short break.
00:13:05.98\00:13:07.68
Stay with us.
00:13:07.72\00:13:09.05
And we'll
continue this discussion
00:13:09.08\00:13:10.42
of breaking news basically.
00:13:10.45\00:13:12.29