Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Amjad Waryam
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000351B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break, with guest Amjad, 00:09 we were, we were really looking at, 00:14 you know, some of the reasoning, 00:15 but why do we keep arguing for religious freedom? 00:19 Why do we keep sharing with people, you know, 00:21 and it's a compulsion that needs to, in some levels, 00:24 ignore reality because our reality 00:26 is bigger than that. 00:27 That's great commission, you know... 00:29 Yes, absolutely. 00:30 That again, coming, you know, 00:32 the great commission. 00:33 Yeah. 00:34 You know, encourages us that we must share. 00:36 Actually, you know, that I, when I preach, 00:37 I tell that if each one of us, even they are not workers, 00:42 they are not pastors, they are evangelists, you know, 00:44 that they start sharing and, you know, Christ, 00:48 and like ASI motto is that sharing Christ at market place, 00:53 you know, that the freedom they have, 00:55 making use of it and also if we share, as I said before, 00:59 the Lord will come soon. 01:01 And I went to one other church, 01:04 it's not Seventh-day Adventist Church, 01:05 they invited me because as I said, 01:08 I'm a gospel singer, Adventist gospel singer. 01:11 So I went, they invited me, and I went to their church 01:14 and, you know, they told me, all are young people sitting, 01:18 they all are pastors and I said, 01:20 "Why are they pastors?" 01:21 They said, "No, we tell them because you're sharing Christ, 01:24 you're talking to people, you are pastors." 01:26 Yeah. Well, that's true. 01:27 In the most literal sense. 01:29 Unless we are confusing being a pastor 01:31 was the call Jesus gave to the apostles, 01:34 that was a very particular and unique thing 01:36 not to be repeated. 01:37 Yeah. 01:39 Even Paul seems to may struggled 01:40 a little illogically to claim 01:42 that he was an apostle called out of time. 01:43 Yeah. 01:44 By definition, he really couldn't have been, 01:46 but he meant his role was the sign. 01:47 He's in role, you know... 01:48 But that aside, to be a pastor and to be a minister, 01:53 to carry out the function... 01:54 Yeah. 01:56 Way too many people in our own church 01:57 are hung up on, with the ordination... 02:00 Yeah. 02:01 Itself makes you a pastor or gives you some status. 02:05 They sort of got it the wrong way around. 02:06 Yeah. 02:08 It seems to me, particularly in the Bible, 02:10 an ordination was recognizing the call, not authorizing you, 02:15 you are authorized by God, by the very fact 02:18 that you were part of this great... 02:20 I think you have answered that because many of us, 02:26 me, even being a Seventh-day Adventist, 02:27 we think we go to church on Sabbath 02:30 and then rest of the things, we will leave it to pastor. 02:32 Yes. 02:34 And the thing is this that if, actually it's, 02:38 we all have to do our part, you know, that, you know, 02:41 we all have to do evangelism. 02:42 We all have to do different things, 02:45 how we can reach to people, you know. 02:47 So that will help even the pastor in our church. 02:49 And it's been my direct observation 02:52 in many countries where, in particular, 02:54 talk about the Adventist church 02:56 where the membership is exploding. 02:58 People don't follow that traditional role, 03:00 when pastor does it and I sort of cheering on. 03:03 They're all moving out. 03:05 They're all ministers and evangelists and so on. 03:08 But anyhow on this upbeat level, I just, 03:10 I think it'll be obligatory to mention, 03:13 as I did on another program, 03:14 that 2017 is the 500th anniversary, 03:18 of the reformation and as a Protestant Christian, 03:22 you know, I have to look back to that with amazement. 03:25 That was an incredibly dynamic movement. 03:28 Like who was your favorite character 03:30 from the reformation? 03:32 There were several towering figures, of course. 03:35 To me, you know, coming from Pakistan, 03:37 I'm still learning. 03:39 Yeah, I'm still learning and I am... 03:43 Like if I see, I don't know the names of the leaders, 03:45 you know, that... 03:47 But you know Martin Luther is the prime one. 03:48 Yeah, that for sure. 03:49 I went with my son to, you know, 03:51 the tour in Washington... Yeah, well, then you... 03:54 And that is how I learned a lot about Martin, you know. 03:57 But he did a good work 03:59 and he promoted the gospel well, 04:00 you know, that... 04:02 But what I want to bring out about Martin Luther was... 04:04 He fought for the freedom, you know. 04:06 Absolutely. 04:08 None of us can quite put ourselves in his mind 04:10 or we can do it, 04:11 but we wouldn't know if it was so, 04:13 because he's long gone. 04:14 Yeah. 04:16 But when I think back on it, he was in a monolithic church, 04:19 you know, now we know the Roman Catholic church, 04:22 it had that same proclamation 04:24 or that same identification then 04:26 but it wasn't seen the same way 04:27 because that was the Christian church. 04:29 Yeah. 04:31 For right or wrong, and a lot of it wrong. 04:32 And it controlled the political power, 04:35 so when Martin Luther first differed from it, 04:38 he clearly couldn't have thought, 04:39 "I'm gonna challenge this successfully 04:41 and then go on my own way." 04:43 He worked it out through within... 04:45 He believed that he could exercise 04:47 the certain conscience prerogative 04:50 and when win the day just an argument. 04:51 Yeah. 04:53 He was hoping through true religious liberty, 04:54 it turned out not to be so. 04:56 But he did it regardless of consequence. 04:58 Yeah. 05:00 He could, he must not have thought 05:01 that he was going to succeed initially 05:02 to change the church. 05:04 Yeah. 05:05 When he got into that mode, criticizing the church, 05:08 I can't imagine that any human rationale 05:11 would have let him to think 05:13 that he could separate and form initially, 05:17 at least a German church. 05:18 And look at the hardship he faced... 05:20 Did he even think that he would escape the gallows 05:25 or the flames of being burnt alive? 05:29 No, no. What was heading for him? 05:31 But he still stuck to it. Yeah. 05:33 He was faithful to the end, you know. 05:35 He believed in religious liberty 05:37 and religious truth so great 05:40 that he was prepared to do it 05:42 even if he was doomed to failure. 05:43 Yeah, but look at the name he has now, 05:48 has a big name, now that... 05:49 Yeah. 05:50 People knew after what he did, you know, 05:53 that and now we see that, now we still, 05:57 all of us fighting for that kind of freedoms 05:59 too in many places. 06:01 Yeah. 06:02 Even true Seventh-day Adventist religion 06:05 or other religion, those who believe in trinity, 06:08 you know, that there are many churches now coming, 06:10 they do not even believe in trinities. 06:12 There is church, I met this time in Pakistan people, 06:15 only Jesus. 06:17 They cannot have complete, you know, that what you say, 06:22 that religion, I feel that, when they believe in Father, 06:26 Son, and Holy Ghost, you know, trinity. 06:28 Well, it's thoroughly Biblical, you know. 06:29 The Biblical. 06:30 You can get into an asterisk argument 06:32 about what had muddied people's understanding of the trinity 06:37 and I have a good friend who's an Imam 06:41 with the Ahmadiyya Muslims. 06:42 Most of their members are in Pakistan, 06:45 they say that there's eight million Ahmadis 06:48 in the world but most of them in Pakistan. 06:51 And their big difference with Christianity 06:54 is over the trinity. 06:56 And he gave me a book on the trinity 06:57 which I already knew about, 06:58 but not their views on it and it sharpened... 07:01 And everybody is, it's a individual opinion, 07:05 you know, what they think of, you know, other... 07:07 The point I was gonna bring out, 07:09 most people don't realize 07:10 that this is one of the biggest road blocks 07:14 between Islam being more friendly 07:16 to Christian views, they don't accept the trinity. 07:19 And within Christianity, 07:21 and starting with the Protestant Reformation 07:24 has been a huge argument over how to express the trinity. 07:27 And I think there's a good argument 07:29 that much of what pastors for the Trinitarian view point, 07:33 still in the Roman Catholic church 07:35 and elsewhere, 07:36 has gathered a lot of debris from paganism. 07:40 Yeah, this is, they don't... 07:42 But the Spirit of God, Jesus is the Son of God, 07:47 it's thoroughly Biblical but the way you express it, 07:51 we don't worship three Gods... 07:52 No. We worship one God. 07:53 One. 07:55 Who is manifested in three different aspects. 07:57 But that three in one, you know, that one, Jesus, 08:01 Holy Spirit, they all are one. 08:02 Yeah. 08:04 But as you know, yeah... Yeah. 08:05 I mean, you must have heard this from Pakistan. 08:06 Yeah. 08:08 They call Christians on occasion, polytheists. 08:09 Polytheist? Because of the three Gods. 08:13 I didn't hear it, but... 08:14 Well, I know in the Middle-East... 08:16 Middle-East, I don't know. 08:17 Islamic view is that and, you know, 08:19 that might be true in some cases 08:21 but it should not be true 08:23 because that's not the rich stance of the Bible 08:26 and of Christians. 08:27 I think one another aspect we see that, 08:32 sometime, we do not understand other people, we must talk. 08:38 Absolutely. 08:39 To me, Jehovah's Witnesses come to my house 08:41 or when I'm selling books, I come across, I meet them, 08:45 they want to tell me everything and I listen to them. 08:47 Absolutely. 08:48 And when I try to tell them and they want to go away, 08:50 you know, run away so fast. 08:52 I want them to listen to me also. 08:53 Yeah. 08:55 But I take their book and I just listen to them, 08:57 what they believe, then I will also try 08:59 to tell my point of view as a Seventh-day Adventist, 09:01 but they don't want to listen to me and... 09:04 Well, some. Yeah. 09:06 I mean, I've came across some Jehovah's Witnesses 09:07 who were gladly discuss and debate 09:10 for as long as you want. 09:11 Yeah. 09:12 I find that one of the... 09:14 My experience was different, you know, here but... 09:16 But as far as religious liberty 09:18 and now the Seventh-day Adventist church, 09:20 our department is actually, 09:21 technically, the department of public affairs 09:24 and religious liberty. 09:25 So it's not just defending the right to say things, 09:29 it involves the necessity of communicating our church. 09:32 Yes, communication. 09:34 Public relations and dialogue and so on 09:36 and it's a privilege on occasion, 09:38 many occasions to sit down with other religions. 09:40 Yeah. 09:42 Many Muslims in our department has spoken to the Lutherans 09:46 and the Salvation Army and others, spend days on in... 09:49 Yeah. Sharing what we both believe. 09:51 You may not convince the other party 09:53 but it's better to have a relationship 09:56 that's based on true knowledge of what 09:57 the other person believes. 09:59 True. Oh, yeah. Other than prejudice. 10:00 That's what I was, that was my point. 10:02 And I think religious liberty can only flourish... 10:04 Yeah. 10:05 Where there's accurate understanding 10:07 of other people's views. 10:08 Yeah, you are right, and even, you know... 10:10 We've got to respect of them. 10:11 We have, I have some, we have Muslim friends too, 10:14 you know, that living in Pakistan, 10:16 you think our neighbors around, 10:18 you know, we live among them and we have lot of friends 10:21 those who are friends with us and they are the enemies too, 10:25 you know, both aspect, you see that. 10:27 Yeah. 10:28 But the good thing is this that the freedom we have now, 10:31 you know, in America, we can make use of it... 10:34 And we need to. 10:35 Many people are taking it for granted, 10:37 they need to use that freedom profitably. 10:40 Yeah. 10:41 So, you know, again, we've talked a lot 10:45 about your background 10:46 and the challenges that every country faces 10:49 and certainly Pakistan is there in the... 10:50 And there are, there are problems. 10:52 When it's a big country... 10:53 I wouldn't put it as problems but challenges. 10:54 Challenges. 10:56 Let's see challenges, let me tell these challenges 10:59 but when you have 200 million people 11:01 in the country, 11:02 so there are challenges in different places 11:04 and little bit is going on everywhere, you know. 11:06 So you are hopeful in your homeland, aren't you? 11:09 That, well, there's many problematic issues, 11:13 you think that heading forward you see a reason 11:15 for optimism in religious dialogue. 11:17 Yeah, it's us to, you know, we see that the problem 11:21 is not that great, the freedom is there. 11:23 We meet, we make friends, we talk to people, 11:26 actually it builds relationship with, on a both way, 11:29 which can be good for religion freedom, 11:33 you know, and this is the reason in God of Life, 11:36 we are trying to help many people, 11:38 as many as we can. 11:41 The year 2017 brings us to 500 years 11:46 since the Protestant Reformation, 11:48 500 years seems an incredibly long period of time. 11:52 Certainly western civilization has undergone turns 11:56 and counterturns and shifts, 11:58 and as the US knows, a huge shift. 12:02 But in reality, the reformation is not a past thing. 12:06 It should be very present for anybody 12:09 that believes in religious liberty 12:11 and believes in the integrity of faith 12:14 because just as with Martin Luther 12:16 and the reformers, 12:17 there is a need today for people to stand up, 12:20 defend freedom, to speak up about their convictions 12:25 and their faith, regardless of the opposition 12:28 and there will be opposition 12:30 as there is in many countries of the world, 12:32 even in the United States. 12:34 But say your peace, defend your rights, speak out, 12:38 speak freedom, and only that way 12:41 will conscience be protected and freedom preserved. 12:47 This is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2017-04-06