Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the
break, with guest Amjad,
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we were, we were
really looking at,
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you know, some of the reasoning,
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but why do we keep
arguing for religious freedom?
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Why do we keep
sharing with people, you know,
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and it's a compulsion
that needs to, in some levels,
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ignore reality
because our reality
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is bigger than that.
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That's great
commission, you know...
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Yes, absolutely.
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That again, coming, you know,
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the great commission.
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Yeah.
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You know, encourages
us that we must share.
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Actually, you know,
that I, when I preach,
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I tell that if each one of
us, even they are not workers,
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they are not pastors,
they are evangelists, you know,
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that they start
sharing and, you know, Christ,
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and like ASI motto is that
sharing Christ at market place,
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you know, that
the freedom they have,
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making use of it and also
if we share, as I said before,
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the Lord will come soon.
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And I went to one other church,
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it's not
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
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they invited me
because as I said,
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I'm a gospel singer,
Adventist gospel singer.
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So I went, they invited
me, and I went to their church
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and, you know, they told me,
all are young people sitting,
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they all are pastors and I said,
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"Why are they pastors?"
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They said, "No, we tell them
because you're sharing Christ,
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you're talking to
people, you are pastors."
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Yeah. Well, that's true.
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In the most literal sense.
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Unless we are
confusing being a pastor
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was the call Jesus
gave to the apostles,
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that was a very
particular and unique thing
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not to be repeated.
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Yeah.
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Even Paul seems to may struggled
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a little illogically to claim
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that he was an
apostle called out of time.
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Yeah.
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By definition, he
really couldn't have been,
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but he meant his
role was the sign.
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He's in role, you know...
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But that aside, to be a
pastor and to be a minister,
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to carry out the function...
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Yeah.
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Way too many
people in our own church
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are hung up on,
with the ordination...
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Yeah.
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Itself makes you a
pastor or gives you some status.
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They sort of got it
the wrong way around.
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Yeah.
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It seems to me,
particularly in the Bible,
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an ordination was recognizing
the call, not authorizing you,
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you are authorized
by God, by the very fact
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that you were
part of this great...
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I think you have answered
that because many of us,
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me, even being a
Seventh-day Adventist,
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we think we go
to church on Sabbath
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and then rest of the things,
we will leave it to pastor.
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Yes.
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And the thing is this
that if, actually it's,
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we all have to do our
part, you know, that, you know,
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we all have to do evangelism.
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We all have to
do different things,
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how we can reach
to people, you know.
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So that will help even
the pastor in our church.
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And it's been my
direct observation
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in many countries
where, in particular,
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talk about the Adventist church
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where the
membership is exploding.
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People don't follow
that traditional role,
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when pastor does it
and I sort of cheering on.
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They're all moving out.
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They're all ministers
and evangelists and so on.
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But anyhow on this
upbeat level, I just,
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I think it'll be
obligatory to mention,
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as I did on another program,
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that 2017 is the
500th anniversary,
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of the reformation and
as a Protestant Christian,
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you know, I have to look
back to that with amazement.
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That was an
incredibly dynamic movement.
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Like who was your
favorite character
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from the reformation?
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There were several
towering figures, of course.
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To me, you know,
coming from Pakistan,
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I'm still learning.
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Yeah, I'm still
learning and I am...
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Like if I see, I don't
know the names of the leaders,
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you know, that...
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But you know Martin
Luther is the prime one.
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Yeah, that for sure.
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I went with my son to, you know,
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the tour in Washington...
Yeah, well, then you...
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And that is how I learned
a lot about Martin, you know.
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But he did a good work
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and he promoted the gospel well,
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you know, that...
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But what I want to bring
out about Martin Luther was...
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He fought for the
freedom, you know.
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Absolutely.
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None of us can quite
put ourselves in his mind
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or we can do it,
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but we wouldn't
know if it was so,
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because he's long gone.
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Yeah.
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But when I think back on it,
he was in a monolithic church,
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you know, now we know
the Roman Catholic church,
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it had that same proclamation
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or that same identification then
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but it wasn't seen the same way
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because that was
the Christian church.
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Yeah.
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For right or wrong,
and a lot of it wrong.
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And it controlled
the political power,
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so when Martin Luther
first differed from it,
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he clearly
couldn't have thought,
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"I'm gonna
challenge this successfully
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and then go on my own way."
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He worked it out
through within...
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He believed that
he could exercise
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the certain
conscience prerogative
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and when win the
day just an argument.
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Yeah.
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He was hoping through
true religious liberty,
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it turned out not to be so.
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But he did it
regardless of consequence.
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Yeah.
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He could, he
must not have thought
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that he was going
to succeed initially
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to change the church.
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Yeah.
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When he got into that
mode, criticizing the church,
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I can't imagine
that any human rationale
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would have let him to think
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that he could
separate and form initially,
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at least a German church.
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And look at the
hardship he faced...
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Did he even think that
he would escape the gallows
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or the flames of
being burnt alive?
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No, no. What
was heading for him?
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But he still stuck to it. Yeah.
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He was faithful
to the end, you know.
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He believed in religious liberty
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and religious truth so great
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that he was prepared to do it
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even if he was
doomed to failure.
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Yeah, but look at
the name he has now,
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has a big name, now that...
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Yeah.
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People knew after
what he did, you know,
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that and now we
see that, now we still,
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all of us fighting
for that kind of freedoms
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too in many places.
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Yeah.
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Even true
Seventh-day Adventist religion
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or other religion,
those who believe in trinity,
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you know, that there are
many churches now coming,
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they do not even
believe in trinities.
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There is church, I met
this time in Pakistan people,
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only Jesus.
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They cannot have complete,
you know, that what you say,
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that religion, I feel that,
when they believe in Father,
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Son, and Holy
Ghost, you know, trinity.
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Well, it's
thoroughly Biblical, you know.
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The Biblical.
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You can get into
an asterisk argument
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about what had muddied people's
understanding of the trinity
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and I have a good
friend who's an Imam
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with the Ahmadiyya Muslims.
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Most of their
members are in Pakistan,
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they say that
there's eight million Ahmadis
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in the world but
most of them in Pakistan.
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And their big
difference with Christianity
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is over the trinity.
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And he gave me a
book on the trinity
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which I already knew about,
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but not their views
on it and it sharpened...
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And everybody is,
it's a individual opinion,
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you know, what they
think of, you know, other...
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The point I was gonna bring out,
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most people don't realize
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that this is one of
the biggest road blocks
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between Islam
being more friendly
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to Christian views, they
don't accept the trinity.
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And within Christianity,
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and starting with the
Protestant Reformation
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has been a huge argument
over how to express the trinity.
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And I think
there's a good argument
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that much of what pastors
for the Trinitarian view point,
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still in the
Roman Catholic church
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and elsewhere,
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has gathered a lot
of debris from paganism.
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Yeah, this is, they don't...
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But the Spirit of God,
Jesus is the Son of God,
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it's thoroughly Biblical
but the way you express it,
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we don't worship three Gods...
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No. We worship one God.
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One.
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Who is manifested in
three different aspects.
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But that three in one,
you know, that one, Jesus,
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Holy Spirit, they all are one.
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Yeah.
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But as you know, yeah... Yeah.
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I mean, you must have
heard this from Pakistan.
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Yeah.
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They call Christians
on occasion, polytheists.
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Polytheist?
Because of the three Gods.
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I didn't hear it, but...
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Well, I know in
the Middle-East...
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Middle-East, I don't know.
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Islamic view is
that and, you know,
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that might be true in some cases
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but it should not be true
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because that's not the
rich stance of the Bible
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and of Christians.
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I think one
another aspect we see that,
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sometime, we do not understand
other people, we must talk.
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Absolutely.
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To me, Jehovah's
Witnesses come to my house
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or when I'm selling books,
I come across, I meet them,
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they want to tell me
everything and I listen to them.
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Absolutely.
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And when I try to tell
them and they want to go away,
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you know, run away so fast.
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I want them to
listen to me also.
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Yeah.
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But I take their book
and I just listen to them,
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what they believe,
then I will also try
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to tell my point of view
as a Seventh-day Adventist,
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but they don't want
to listen to me and...
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Well, some. Yeah.
00:09:04.94\00:09:06.27
I mean, I've came
across some Jehovah's Witnesses
00:09:06.31\00:09:07.64
who were gladly
discuss and debate
00:09:07.68\00:09:10.01
for as long as you want.
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Yeah.
00:09:11.41\00:09:12.75
I find that one of the...
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My experience was
different, you know, here but...
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But as far as religious liberty
00:09:16.95\00:09:18.69
and now the
Seventh-day Adventist church,
00:09:18.72\00:09:20.12
our department is actually,
00:09:20.16\00:09:21.49
technically, the
department of public affairs
00:09:21.52\00:09:24.13
and religious liberty.
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So it's not just defending
the right to say things,
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it involves the necessity
of communicating our church.
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Yes, communication.
00:09:32.63\00:09:33.97
Public relations
and dialogue and so on
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and it's a
privilege on occasion,
00:09:36.81\00:09:38.71
many occasions to sit
down with other religions.
00:09:38.74\00:09:40.84
Yeah.
00:09:40.88\00:09:42.21
Many Muslims in our department
has spoken to the Lutherans
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and the Salvation Army and
others, spend days on in...
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Yeah. Sharing
what we both believe.
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You may not
convince the other party
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but it's better to
have a relationship
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that's based on
true knowledge of what
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the other person believes.
00:09:57.96\00:09:59.29
True. Oh, yeah.
Other than prejudice.
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That's what I
was, that was my point.
00:10:00.70\00:10:02.36
And I think religious
liberty can only flourish...
00:10:02.40\00:10:04.40
Yeah.
00:10:04.43\00:10:05.77
Where there's
accurate understanding
00:10:05.80\00:10:07.27
of other people's views.
00:10:07.30\00:10:08.87
Yeah, you are right,
and even, you know...
00:10:08.90\00:10:10.24
We've got to respect of them.
00:10:10.27\00:10:11.61
We have, I have some,
we have Muslim friends too,
00:10:11.64\00:10:14.21
you know, that
living in Pakistan,
00:10:14.24\00:10:16.04
you think our neighbors around,
00:10:16.08\00:10:18.18
you know, we live among
them and we have lot of friends
00:10:18.21\00:10:21.48
those who are friends with
us and they are the enemies too,
00:10:21.52\00:10:25.35
you know, both
aspect, you see that.
00:10:25.39\00:10:27.26
Yeah.
00:10:27.29\00:10:28.62
But the good thing is this
that the freedom we have now,
00:10:28.66\00:10:30.99
you know, in America,
we can make use of it...
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And we need to.
00:10:34.26\00:10:35.60
Many people are
taking it for granted,
00:10:35.63\00:10:37.63
they need to use
that freedom profitably.
00:10:37.67\00:10:40.07
Yeah.
00:10:40.10\00:10:41.70
So, you know,
again, we've talked a lot
00:10:41.74\00:10:45.17
about your background
00:10:45.21\00:10:46.54
and the challenges
that every country faces
00:10:46.57\00:10:49.24
and certainly
Pakistan is there in the...
00:10:49.28\00:10:50.61
And there are,
there are problems.
00:10:50.65\00:10:51.98
When it's a big country...
00:10:52.01\00:10:53.35
I wouldn't put it as
problems but challenges.
00:10:53.38\00:10:54.72
Challenges.
00:10:54.75\00:10:56.08
Let's see challenges,
let me tell these challenges
00:10:56.12\00:10:58.99
but when you have
200 million people
00:10:59.02\00:11:01.26
in the country,
00:11:01.29\00:11:02.62
so there are
challenges in different places
00:11:02.66\00:11:04.59
and little bit is going
on everywhere, you know.
00:11:04.63\00:11:06.80
So you are hopeful in
your homeland, aren't you?
00:11:06.83\00:11:09.36
That, well, there's
many problematic issues,
00:11:09.40\00:11:13.03
you think that heading
forward you see a reason
00:11:13.07\00:11:15.90
for optimism in
religious dialogue.
00:11:15.94\00:11:17.27
Yeah, it's us to, you
know, we see that the problem
00:11:17.31\00:11:20.98
is not that great,
the freedom is there.
00:11:21.01\00:11:23.55
We meet, we make
friends, we talk to people,
00:11:23.58\00:11:26.61
actually it builds relationship
with, on a both way,
00:11:26.65\00:11:29.78
which can be good
for religion freedom,
00:11:29.82\00:11:33.12
you know, and this is
the reason in God of Life,
00:11:33.15\00:11:36.49
we are trying to
help many people,
00:11:36.52\00:11:38.39
as many as we can.
00:11:38.43\00:11:41.46
The year 2017
brings us to 500 years
00:11:41.50\00:11:46.17
since the
Protestant Reformation,
00:11:46.20\00:11:48.80
500 years seems an
incredibly long period of time.
00:11:48.84\00:11:52.27
Certainly western
civilization has undergone turns
00:11:52.31\00:11:56.08
and counterturns and shifts,
00:11:56.11\00:11:58.45
and as the US
knows, a huge shift.
00:11:58.48\00:12:02.15
But in reality, the
reformation is not a past thing.
00:12:02.18\00:12:06.55
It should be very
present for anybody
00:12:06.59\00:12:09.06
that believes in
religious liberty
00:12:09.09\00:12:10.99
and believes in
the integrity of faith
00:12:11.03\00:12:14.46
because just as
with Martin Luther
00:12:14.50\00:12:16.20
and the reformers,
00:12:16.23\00:12:17.57
there is a need today
for people to stand up,
00:12:17.60\00:12:20.67
defend freedom, to speak
up about their convictions
00:12:20.70\00:12:25.14
and their faith,
regardless of the opposition
00:12:25.17\00:12:28.01
and there will be opposition
00:12:28.04\00:12:30.61
as there is in many
countries of the world,
00:12:30.65\00:12:32.58
even in the United States.
00:12:32.61\00:12:34.18
But say your peace,
defend your rights, speak out,
00:12:34.22\00:12:38.55
speak freedom, and only that way
00:12:38.59\00:12:41.92
will conscience be
protected and freedom preserved.
00:12:41.96\00:12:47.20
This is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:47.23\00:12:49.46