Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Amjad Waryam
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000348B
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00:05 Welcome back from our break.
00:07 Before the break, 00:08 I was talking and enjoying the discussion with Amjad Alam. 00:15 I've been to your homeland of Pakistan, 00:17 but it's been a while, 00:19 and it's refreshing to hear what you're doing there 00:22 in witnessing to your faith, 00:23 in a way that's non-confrontational 00:26 that fulfils the chart of the wheel 00:29 have on religious liberty 00:30 to respect other people's faith. 00:32 But as a Christian, or if you're a Muslim, 00:35 whatever I'm sure it applies, but as a Christian, 00:37 we're under personal obligation to share our faith. 00:41 No religious faith is a private, 00:43 personal, introspective thing or shouldn't be. 00:45 Yeah. 00:48 And I'm encouraged the way 00:49 that you've been able to freely, 00:51 and openly, and naturally share. 00:54 And your experience has been that in that environment 00:57 you don't see opposition because what are they opposing, 01:01 a fellow human being who believes in something. 01:04 One thing is for sure, you see, 01:06 I just came to America, not long ago, 01:08 but thing is this that originally, 01:11 I'm from Pakistan, if you see. 01:13 Well, I know the language, I know the culture, 01:16 and we know, we've been, we lived there. 01:19 My parents lived here, 01:20 and our forefathers lived here, you know. 01:22 And we know the culture and there was a time 01:25 because everybody was together with no problem. 01:28 And we did not know who is who, you know, 01:31 but now still, you know, 01:33 I feel like that there a lot can be done, 01:36 you know, that people like Christians, 01:39 Even I see the employers, you know, that sometime they, 01:43 they want to have a Christian employees, 01:45 you know. 01:46 And someplace we have challenges, 01:47 we don't get a job. 01:49 It's all different situation, time... 01:51 And you know that's... And place too, you know... 01:53 A certain level of that is to be expected 01:55 because humans have... 01:57 many humans have their own attitudes and prejudices, 02:00 hopefully not that rise to the level of persecution, 02:03 but people make choices. 02:05 Even in the US, 02:07 with freedom of religion and so on, 02:09 you're going to find, you get a job 02:11 when someone is not at all religiously inclined. 02:14 They may see you as just not the type of person 02:17 they want to hire. 02:19 It's not religious prejudice, 02:21 but you're not on their wavelength. 02:22 And I'm sure even in the ideal situation 02:25 that you're reaching toward, it's never gonna be perfect. 02:29 People judge things a little differently. 02:31 Yeah, but let me just tell you, 02:32 I was in Pakistan about two years ago, 02:36 and in the midnight like 12 o'clock, 02:38 I was just going with my friend, 02:41 and my actually assistant and he was, 02:43 we both were going 02:45 and I have one of my relative and the baby in the car. 02:48 And, you know, I was, 02:50 a couple of people came on a motorcycle and, you know, 02:53 we thought they need help. 02:55 What happened, 02:57 all of a sudden as we stopped the car, 02:58 they point gun to us, and those were, 03:03 those things are not with only Christians, 03:05 but can be with a Muslim. 03:06 Did they just pointed the gun and moved on? 03:08 It can be with Muslims too, you know. 03:09 It can be because in the middle one, 03:10 they're looking for money, 03:12 they're looking for some other 03:13 than they can damage you if you don't. 03:16 They want everything, you know. 03:17 I think their poverty and there are challenges 03:20 of their problems are there today. 03:22 Well, it's an interesting interjection that you gave 03:26 and people should remember that. 03:29 You say that the laws 03:31 there are not particularly biased against any faith, 03:34 but the society has issues. 03:36 The society has issues. 03:38 Now poverty or economic distress 03:42 will bring out inherent problems. 03:45 And clearly the US has a constitutional advantage 03:48 over many countries. 03:50 We have a tradition of accommodation, 03:52 not just tolerance, but freedom from all religions. 03:56 But in times of economic distress, 03:59 like the great depression or even 2008, 04:02 there was a sample of it, but in the future, 04:04 there's bound to be drops, 04:06 you can expect these underlying prejudices, 04:09 tensions, even criminality, 04:14 gangsters and that, that will increase. 04:16 And we should be a little bit understanding of Pakistan 04:18 and other countries. 04:20 It's not just that 04:21 they are more religiously prejudice 04:23 say than another country. 04:25 The society is under deep stress that brings out 04:29 what is inherent and may exist here in the US just as much, 04:34 but it's not manifesting 04:35 because the stress is not there. 04:37 Yeah, as you said that society has a lot of challenges, 04:40 you know, that we're facing. 04:42 And, of course, 04:43 as mentioned in the earlier program also, 04:47 its literacy rate is also important. 04:49 When people are educated, they have education, 04:53 the things can be very different. 04:55 Well, the literacy rate, 04:56 I think is directly tied 04:57 to the advancement of spiritual truth. 05:00 It is. 05:01 Now, this year, 05:03 I'm sure this program is going to be shown this year in 2017. 05:07 This is the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, 05:10 Protestant Reformation. 05:12 It's worth remembering 05:13 that the Reformation was inextricably connected 05:16 to the development of printing 05:18 and the distribution of books generally 05:20 and Bibles in particular. 05:22 I read the other day that as the Luther's descent rose, 05:27 in that context they were already over 05:29 30 million books in Europe 05:30 and they weren't that many people in Europe back then. 05:34 Thirty million and most of those Bibles. 05:36 That's what caused the blossoming 05:39 of an independent religious spirit. 05:41 And I believe in Pakistan or any other country 05:44 where the literacy rate is lagging a bit, 05:46 when it rises and people start reading, 05:49 incredible things will happen to the society, 05:52 and the governance, and to religious expression. 05:54 It makes a huge lot of difference, you know, that, 05:57 see when we come here, we learn a lot of new things, 06:00 you know, that and if we go then back in Pakistan, 06:03 we literally see some people are still the same. 06:06 I think the opportunities are less for many people 06:10 and like nowadays this is a reason 06:13 we started from God of Life International Ministry, 06:15 we started to educate people, you know, 06:18 we started academic classes from. 06:20 And even for adult, you know, literacy classes, we started, 06:24 so we, they can learn to read Bible, 06:26 they can open, you know. 06:28 And have you found the general community 06:30 including obviously mostly Muslims? 06:33 Are they comfortable with this emphasis on literacy per se? 06:38 Yeah. 06:39 We didn't have any problem so far 06:41 and even some Muslim women came to our center 06:45 and they just also learned sewing 06:48 and, you know, skills, you know, training 06:51 and we issue them certificate 06:54 and they just go and find a job. 06:56 I think you're doing a great service in there. 06:58 One thing I remember in Pakistan, 06:59 and I saw it in India too. 07:02 Where in little dark rooms, 07:07 I remember one in particular, 07:08 I don't think there was a window in the room, 07:10 and there were maybe 50, 60 young boys, 07:13 they're pre-teen boys, 07:15 all sitting, they couldn't read. 07:17 And a religious leader upfront 07:20 was interning the Quran all day. 07:23 He'd sing out a line 07:24 and they would yell, they would yell it back 07:26 and they were memorizing the Quran. 07:28 They couldn't read, 07:29 they knew nothing about the outside world, 07:31 and here they're going over and over the Quran. 07:34 Now, it's not for me to say, 07:35 in fact, they would not welcome me to say 07:37 the Quran is a wrong book or whatever, 07:39 but let's just say with the Bible. 07:41 I would still think it would be trouble problematic, 07:43 you're not teaching literacy, 07:45 you're droning this holy word into their minds 07:49 and then we wonder why these uneducated 07:52 perhaps even undernourished young boys 07:56 can't think straight. 07:57 Their mind is addled by religious imagery 08:00 that even if it were correct at the base, 08:02 it's just now tangled up 08:03 and swirling around in their brain. 08:06 You know, even within the Christian community, 08:08 I get letters on religious liberty 08:09 from people who clearly are poorly educated, 08:12 and they read and read even the Bible, 08:15 but they don't understand it, 08:16 you can hardly read the pages 08:17 all jumbled this and that at the other end. 08:19 And I think that a great disservice 08:21 has been done to young Pakistani, 08:24 the younger generation by this sort of rote learning 08:29 but neglecting to educate them. 08:32 Education, you know, that is very, very important, 08:35 and as you were mentioning, you know, before something, 08:39 you know, that young children, actually that's again, 08:43 I say that is very sensitive, 08:45 you know, it's their religion, you know. 08:47 Oh, I understand. 08:48 I'm trying to do it on a... 08:50 explain it on a rational non-religious level per se. 08:53 So this is from the years and years... 08:55 It would be just as dangerous to do that 08:56 if it were Christianity or Buddhism. 08:59 It's not that it's Islam, but in this Islamic country, 09:02 they are neglecting education while just forcing in, 09:07 you know what, 09:08 a tumbled version of their own faith. 09:10 It's not helping them. 09:11 But one thing for sure, 09:12 let me just tell you that they are at least teaching 09:16 and there are people learning 09:17 for our problems are even different. 09:20 It gets even worse. We even. 09:21 We have Bible, we don't read. 09:23 Well, that's true, yes, absolutely... 09:24 And many, you know, we don't do our part. 09:27 You know, at least they are responding saying that 09:30 what they teach they're respectful to that 09:33 and they are doing it, you know. 09:35 We need to even, I think change and show 09:37 and demonstrate that we read, you know, our book, you know... 09:42 And the Bible to be fair and work against 09:45 even what I said, you know, the Bible says that 09:48 there's a phenomenon of ever learning 09:49 but never arriving at the truth. 09:52 We have to approach all learning 09:53 and spiritual learning in particular 09:55 with the right frame of mind. 09:59 But I do believe that general literacy 10:01 is the friend of spiritual commitment. 10:03 Sure, even adult in Pakistan, even Christians, you know, 10:07 you know, they know the Bible verses by heart, 10:10 but they don't know how to read, you know. 10:11 My dad was uneducated person, but he knows only to sign, 10:16 but he knows the Bible. 10:18 You know, by learning by heart. 10:19 My mother knew about this, but they cannot read, 10:21 but this is a, this is... 10:23 Now, were your parents Christians 10:25 all their lives or...? 10:26 Yeah, my parents were Christians, 10:28 and, yeah, but no education. 10:30 No education, no education, 10:32 so what happens is that they learned, 10:34 even they go to church, they pick up, 10:36 you know, that and when they repeat things, 10:39 pastor or other, 10:41 and they learn these verses, you know. 10:42 And they obviously inculcated in you the need 10:45 for more knowledge and more commitment. 10:47 So this is the reason I'm trying to help people 10:49 to get some education and get some training, 10:52 technical and also how they can read their Bible too. 10:55 And I think at the end of the day, 10:57 your evangelistic efforts are so valuable 11:01 because even if people don't automatically 11:03 or routinely accept Christianity. 11:06 You're educating them about your faith. 11:08 Yeah, we are trying our, 11:11 and I'm thankful that 11:13 this opportunity can be given to many, 11:18 many people they can benefit from this, 11:20 and they can be helped, and they can learn 11:24 and also teach others, you know. 11:26 So education is very, very important 11:28 to what we are supporting. 11:30 I have several resolution in life 11:32 and one of them that 11:34 I should have taken care of before this 11:36 summation was what does the word colporteur mean? 11:40 What is its origin? 11:41 I know what it means in practice. 11:43 Most people, for most people it's a nonsensical word, 11:47 but for the Seventh-day Adventist church, 11:49 in its rapid expansion on a global mission, 11:52 a colporteur was a man with a book in hand, 11:55 and a compulsion in his heart went door-to-door, 11:58 sharing his faith. 11:59 And for those that were receptive 12:01 leaving some literature. 12:03 There is no question that that dynamic of a salesman, 12:07 a gospel salesman has the ability to change 12:11 whole societies and bring forth whole companies of believers 12:15 that reality has not changed in my view. 12:19 And in our guest's experience, 12:21 Amjad has found both in his home country 12:25 and then in Thailand. 12:27 As well as that, 12:29 so it's not about in the United States, 12:31 people are receptive to the Word of God 12:33 expressed through the printed word, 12:35 but communicated through personal interaction. 12:38 That is our privilege. 12:40 That is religious liberty in action. 12:44 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2017-04-03