Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Amjad Waryam
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000348A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is a program bringing you discussion, 00:30 news, views, updates, 00:32 and the inside track on religious liberty issues 00:35 in the US and around the world. 00:37 My name is Lincoln Steed, I edit Liberty Magazine, 00:41 a magazine that's now been 00:43 in continuous publication for 111 years. 00:47 And my guest is a very unique individual, 00:51 Amjad Maryam Alam. 00:54 It's Amjad Waryam Alam. 00:57 You said correctively, I thought I had this right. 00:58 But, thank you. That's why I was reading it. 01:00 It's a very unique name, Pakistani name. 01:03 Yeah. 01:04 And I've been impressed talking with you 01:06 on the previous program 01:08 and after I met you on your ministry. 01:11 You know, we live in a very dangerous world. 01:15 A world with all sorts of challenges, particularly, 01:18 on the religious liberty front, and Pakistan, 01:21 where you grew up... 01:23 Yeah, I was born... 01:25 And then moved, 01:26 as you told me on your last story 01:27 from Pakistan to Thailand, 01:30 and then on to the United States 01:32 where you currently live. 01:33 You know, Pakistan is in the news a lot. 01:37 And very often, 01:39 it's because of agitation of a religious nature there. 01:43 How would you character, you know, 01:45 knowing Pakistani history and growing up there 01:48 and seeing its effect on society, 01:49 why is it that religious tensions periodically 01:54 get so out of control in Pakistan? 01:58 I think this is not that officially, 02:02 but this is something personal, you know... 02:05 Well, that's all you can give, only our personal views. 02:07 Yeah, yeah. Personal, you know. 02:09 It's people, you also, you know 02:10 that how the one feel in Pakistan, 02:12 you know, the people living in Pakistan, 02:15 you know, it's about, you know, 02:17 that not like the government is doing something 02:22 is, sometimes sensitivity is there, you know, 02:26 that people if you say 02:29 something bad about for somebody 02:32 or say against something 02:34 they pick those people, you know, 02:36 that other than that there is still, you know, 02:40 that the freedom is there, 02:42 we see, we have our churches 02:44 as I mentioned before in the other program... 02:46 These are Christian churches? 02:47 Yeah, we have... 02:48 Pakistan is overwhelmingly Islam, 02:50 but, of course, there's many minorities, 02:51 both Islamic minorities... Christians are... 02:53 People forget they exist. 02:55 As well as Christians and some other religions. 02:58 There are minorities like Christians, Hindus and Parsis, 03:01 but Christians are about 5%. 03:06 That's what they count officially, you know, that. 03:08 And I feel like there is now it's grown more, you know, 03:12 there are many Christians there, 03:14 and we have many churches. 03:15 We have many denominations, you know, that, 03:17 but Seventh-day Adventist church 03:19 is there too, you know. 03:20 Now, let me ask you a question. 03:21 You probably never would guess, how did they know there are 5%, 03:25 like in the United States, 03:26 they have regular census every several years. 03:30 Do you have a census? Yeah. 03:31 The government has the census and also, you know, 03:35 individually when denominational they do it, 03:38 that and then this, then these census are accounted 03:41 then they figure it out 03:42 how many percentage of Christians are there. 03:46 So you're comfortable that at the government level, 03:50 it's well ordered and not... 03:53 Well, so far there is... apparently dangerous? 03:55 Yeah, it's not because they do not ban anything. 03:58 We still do have a freedom of worship, 04:01 you know, that otherwise 04:02 there would be no churches in Pakistan. 04:05 And there was a time in missionary used to go, 04:08 things have change 04:09 but missionaries are not going as frequent as, 04:13 you know the problems in the past. 04:16 But there was a time missionary did a lot of work, 04:19 even they built the schools, colleges, 04:24 churches and hospitals. 04:26 That's why we have our college in Pakistan 04:30 and we have our hospital 04:33 that's where I work as HR director 04:35 for Karachi Adventist hospital. 04:38 I've never been there. How big is that hospital? 04:40 You're gonna... We have 120 bed hospital. 04:42 Oh, that's a good size, yes. Yeah. 04:45 These challenges, when missionary left, you know, 04:47 that the doctors used to come from abroad, 04:50 the pastors even, 04:51 the teachers we used to have lot of, 04:54 you know, that people those who were helping there 04:57 and some were volunteers, 04:59 some through General Conference and as a missionary. 05:01 Yeah, where our Adventist headquarters is. 05:04 But, now we don't have local people running, 05:08 we don't have... 05:10 I think, yes, Pakistan, like many countries around the world 05:12 as they developed a sense of after World War II, 05:16 a real self identity, 05:18 started limiting outside 05:22 workers/missionaries or whatever. 05:25 I think this is the case, isn't it? 05:27 They want nationals to pick up all the way. 05:29 Now the workings going on by nationals... 05:33 Which is not a bad dynamic. 05:34 Which is actually good, but the thing is this, 05:37 the bad thing I feel like 05:39 they did not train leaders or workers 05:43 to take care it, all of sudden it happen. 05:46 Yeah, that is bad. 05:47 That dropping the quality of work 05:50 and there are a lot of challenges, I should say. 05:54 Yeah, and that's where what you do personally 05:57 can be of great assistance that you continued your studies 06:01 and your life experience 06:02 and then go back to your homeland 06:04 to do what you can. 06:05 As I said I have a burden to help and support people 06:10 because Christians are one thing for sure 06:12 not rich people, 06:15 they are like strugglers, I should say. 06:18 But let me ask you really wild question, 06:21 you know, I'm originally from Australia, 06:23 and I had a great burden, I think like you, 06:26 to go back to my country. 06:28 But there is a phenomenon. 06:31 I think Jesus said it 06:32 "The prophet has no honor in his own country." 06:35 Do you think that 06:38 when you go back to Pakistan 06:40 as someone who's lived 06:41 a good percentage of your life overseas, 06:43 you welcomed both by your own faith community 06:49 and the larger group, do they sort of, 06:52 look at any suspicion with you or are they welcoming? 06:54 No, you're 100% right. 06:56 I agree with you because the thing is this, 06:58 when you go 07:00 I work like in Seventh-day Adventist church, 07:03 but I see that more than 07:05 Seventh-day Adventist church in Pakistan, 07:07 other denomination, other people use us more, 07:10 and they invite us more, 07:12 they respect us more and they love us more. 07:15 Yeah, I'm right on the money, aren't I? 07:17 But actually inadvertently 07:18 that's broadening your influence. 07:20 But I just want to tell you. 07:22 Among others too, 07:23 I probably say I'm a Seventh-say Adventist, 07:25 and I have all the respect for a church, 07:28 and I love my church, 07:29 and I do promote Seventh-day Adventist church. 07:31 Yeah. 07:33 But I've got to tell you when I was a young fellow, 07:37 and my father took us on 07:39 one of our trips back to Australia 07:41 within our church 07:42 he transferred to the headquarters. 07:45 And so he was seen as an overseas worker. 07:47 North Americans have trouble with that. 07:49 They think missionaries go elsewhere. 07:51 But transferring from Australia to the US, 07:55 we were missionaries too in the US. 07:56 And so every, I think five or six years initially, 08:00 we could go back to visit our homeland. 08:03 It was sort of a holiday furlough 08:06 they used to call it. 08:07 And on one of those trips, 08:09 he took us to many different countries, 08:11 Pakistan included, India, 08:13 first time I've been to India I've been since 08:16 and, well, socially, religious differences 08:21 between Pakistan and India are huge. 08:23 But socially it's the same sort of cultural context 08:27 and many of the challenges that face evangelization 08:31 and our Christian church operations are the same. 08:34 And in India, it really hit me between the eyes, 08:40 when I saw the difficulty our church 08:42 witness was undergoing for many reasons 08:45 but most particularly 08:47 because even though they were baptizing 08:50 many, many people, 08:52 when they came into the church, 08:53 they would go to Loma Linda or elsewhere to study 08:56 and never come back. 08:58 And the church was struggling 08:59 for a lack of competent trained workers 09:03 because they had gone elsewhere. 09:04 Yeah. I see that... 09:06 And that really affected me and made me just determined. 09:10 I was going back to Australia, whether they wanted me, 09:14 I don't really know, 09:16 but I was under great compulsion 09:19 and I know that that phenomenon 09:20 plays out not just in India or in other places. 09:23 We have challenges too, you know, 09:24 that as I said that the training, you know, 09:27 the experience and like a pastor 09:30 or so evangelist or like presidents, 09:32 conference, you know, union, 09:35 we have big challenge in Pakistan. 09:37 You know, our membership, 09:39 I feel like dropped tremendously 09:42 when I was there, you know, 09:43 now I see our churches, some places are very empty. 09:47 I have in my ministry there was, 09:50 I have a friend of mine 09:52 that also work with me and our assistant, 09:54 one of our assistant, 09:55 who works with us in God of Life 09:57 International Ministry. 09:59 He was in a church. 10:00 We used to have that church full. 10:03 That was in northern side of Pakistan 10:06 and when he said and he called me, 10:09 he said, only two, three people are sitting 10:11 and I'm there. 10:13 And that is situation of our churches 10:16 and, you know, then I also went to see Pakistan, 10:19 so I feel like 10:21 there is some more training needs to be done, 10:23 more leadership training needed there. 10:26 And the vision needs to be corrected too, 10:28 you know, what we are... 10:30 So it's less just the declining interest 10:34 than it is difficulties in the community 10:37 because it seems to me in many cultures 10:39 and Pakistan's one of them, 10:41 where there's whatever the majority religion, 10:43 something else, 10:44 to take on Christianity as a minority, 10:47 that takes a little commitment and backing the trend 10:51 so there are my people, 10:53 but yet even there they drift away. 10:54 Yeah. 10:56 The commitment, and dedication, 10:58 and leadership, you know, it helps, you know. 11:00 The reason is this that we are some, 11:03 I feel that there is an oversight in our part, 11:05 we are not maybe doing our part right. 11:08 We must, first of all, 11:10 we need to have a sense of that evangelism, 11:14 we must reach people what the Lord has said, 11:17 what Jesus' message was, 11:18 the healing ministry of Jesus Christ 11:20 and also we need to talk more about Holy Spirit 11:23 and we need to... 11:25 the thing is this that if we see our doctrine, 11:27 you know, we are not I feel like 11:29 that we should do more. 11:31 The way I put it, you know, and some non-Christians might, 11:34 you know, the Holy Spirit, it may not compute with them, 11:37 but I've often said on religious liberty 11:39 that there is way too much religion in the world, 11:43 but not enough spirituality. 11:45 And all religion of any consequence 11:48 sees this aspect 11:49 and Christianity takes it to another level 11:52 where the Holy Spirit 11:53 is the indwelling characteristics of God 11:57 and the power of God. 11:58 Without that, it's just a belief system 12:00 and just a membership, a club, 12:03 and I could see why 12:05 other religions might even be suspicious of a competitor, 12:08 but if we're bringing 12:10 an innate fulfillment to our life 12:12 and the knowledge of the deity, 12:14 no other religion should be offended by that. 12:17 Yeah. 12:19 I tell you... 12:20 You're bringing psychological satisfaction 12:21 to your neighbors and your fellow countrymen. 12:24 And I see, you know, 12:25 what Jesus did on this planet or if we share Christ 12:29 and if you talk about good things, 12:31 I don't think people will be against you 12:34 even to any religion. 12:35 If you talk about something good, you know, 12:38 you see the people come, you know, 12:40 they are open to listen to you. 12:42 Yeah. 12:43 But only thing we cannot offend their religion, 12:46 we cannot go against their religion. 12:47 Absolutely. 12:48 But there is... You show Christ like corrector, 12:51 so people get attracted to you for good things. 12:53 I'm sure that's the secret to where you're very successful... 12:58 I'm trying to think of how to, 13:00 pilgrimage is back to your homeland. 13:02 Let's take a break now, so please stay with us. 13:04 We'll return shortly 13:05 to continue this very interesting discussion 13:09 of how Amjad is communicating his faith in his homeland. 13:12 Thank you so much. |
Revised 2017-04-03