Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you discussion,
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news, views, updates,
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and the inside track on
religious liberty issues
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln
Steed, I edit Liberty Magazine,
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a magazine that's now been
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in continuous
publication for 111 years.
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And my guest is a
very unique individual,
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Amjad Maryam Alam.
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It's Amjad Waryam Alam.
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You said correctively, I
thought I had this right.
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But, thank you.
That's why I was reading it.
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It's a very unique
name, Pakistani name.
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Yeah.
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And I've been
impressed talking with you
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on the previous program
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and after I met
you on your ministry.
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You know, we live in
a very dangerous world.
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A world with all sorts
of challenges, particularly,
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on the religious
liberty front, and Pakistan,
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where you grew up...
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Yeah, I was born...
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And then moved,
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as you told me
on your last story
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from Pakistan to Thailand,
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and then on to the United States
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where you currently live.
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You know, Pakistan
is in the news a lot.
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And very often,
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it's because of agitation
of a religious nature there.
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How would you
character, you know,
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knowing Pakistani
history and growing up there
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and seeing its
effect on society,
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why is it that
religious tensions periodically
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get so out of
control in Pakistan?
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I think this is
not that officially,
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but this is
something personal, you know...
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Well, that's all you can
give, only our personal views.
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Yeah, yeah. Personal, you know.
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It's people, you also, you know
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that how the one
feel in Pakistan,
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you know, the
people living in Pakistan,
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you know, it's about, you know,
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that not like the
government is doing something
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is, sometimes
sensitivity is there, you know,
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that people if you say
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something bad about for somebody
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or say against something
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they pick those
people, you know,
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that other than that
there is still, you know,
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that the freedom is there,
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we see, we have our churches
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as I mentioned before
in the other program...
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These are Christian churches?
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Yeah, we have...
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Pakistan is
overwhelmingly Islam,
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but, of course,
there's many minorities,
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both Islamic
minorities... Christians are...
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People forget they exist.
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As well as Christians
and some other religions.
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There are minorities like
Christians, Hindus and Parsis,
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but Christians are about 5%.
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That's what they count
officially, you know, that.
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And I feel like there is
now it's grown more, you know,
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there are many Christians there,
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and we have many churches.
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We have many
denominations, you know, that,
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but Seventh-day Adventist church
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is there too, you know.
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Now, let me ask you a question.
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You probably never would guess,
how did they know there are 5%,
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like in the United States,
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they have regular
census every several years.
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Do you have a census? Yeah.
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The government has the
census and also, you know,
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individually when
denominational they do it,
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that and then this, then
these census are accounted
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then they figure it out
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how many percentage
of Christians are there.
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So you're comfortable
that at the government level,
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it's well ordered and not...
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Well, so far there
is... apparently dangerous?
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Yeah, it's not because
they do not ban anything.
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We still do have a
freedom of worship,
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you know, that otherwise
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there would be no
churches in Pakistan.
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And there was a time
in missionary used to go,
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things have change
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but missionaries are
not going as frequent as,
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you know the
problems in the past.
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But there was a time
missionary did a lot of work,
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even they built
the schools, colleges,
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churches and hospitals.
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That's why we have
our college in Pakistan
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and we have our hospital
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that's where I
work as HR director
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for Karachi Adventist hospital.
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I've never been there.
How big is that hospital?
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You're gonna... We
have 120 bed hospital.
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Oh, that's a
good size, yes. Yeah.
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These challenges, when
missionary left, you know,
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that the doctors
used to come from abroad,
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the pastors even,
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the teachers we
used to have lot of,
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you know, that people
those who were helping there
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and some were volunteers,
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some through General
Conference and as a missionary.
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Yeah, where our
Adventist headquarters is.
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But, now we don't
have local people running,
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we don't have...
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I think, yes, Pakistan, like
many countries around the world
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as they developed a
sense of after World War II,
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a real self identity,
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started limiting outside
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workers/missionaries
or whatever.
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I think this is
the case, isn't it?
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They want nationals
to pick up all the way.
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Now the workings
going on by nationals...
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Which is not a bad dynamic.
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Which is actually
good, but the thing is this,
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the bad thing I feel like
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they did not
train leaders or workers
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to take care it,
all of sudden it happen.
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Yeah, that is bad.
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That dropping
the quality of work
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and there are a lot of
challenges, I should say.
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Yeah, and that's
where what you do personally
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can be of great assistance
that you continued your studies
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and your life experience
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and then go
back to your homeland
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to do what you can.
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As I said I have a burden
to help and support people
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because Christians
are one thing for sure
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not rich people,
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they are like
strugglers, I should say.
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But let me ask you
really wild question,
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you know, I'm
originally from Australia,
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and I had a great
burden, I think like you,
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to go back to my country.
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But there is a phenomenon.
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I think Jesus said it
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"The prophet has no
honor in his own country."
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Do you think that
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when you go back to Pakistan
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as someone who's lived
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a good percentage
of your life overseas,
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you welcomed both by
your own faith community
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and the larger
group, do they sort of,
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look at any suspicion
with you or are they welcoming?
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No, you're 100% right.
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I agree with you
because the thing is this,
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when you go
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I work like in
Seventh-day Adventist church,
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but I see that more than
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Seventh-day
Adventist church in Pakistan,
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other denomination,
other people use us more,
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and they invite us more,
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they respect us more
and they love us more.
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Yeah, I'm right on
the money, aren't I?
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But actually inadvertently
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that's
broadening your influence.
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But I just want to tell you.
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Among others too,
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I probably say I'm a
Seventh-say Adventist,
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and I have all the
respect for a church,
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and I love my church,
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and I do promote
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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Yeah.
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But I've got to tell you
when I was a young fellow,
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and my father took us on
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one of our trips
back to Australia
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within our church
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he transferred
to the headquarters.
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And so he was seen
as an overseas worker.
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North Americans
have trouble with that.
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They think
missionaries go elsewhere.
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But transferring
from Australia to the US,
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we were
missionaries too in the US.
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And so every, I think
five or six years initially,
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we could go back
to visit our homeland.
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It was sort of
a holiday furlough
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they used to call it.
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And on one of those trips,
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he took us to many
different countries,
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Pakistan included, India,
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first time I've been
to India I've been since
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and, well, socially,
religious differences
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between Pakistan
and India are huge.
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But socially it's the
same sort of cultural context
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and many of the challenges
that face evangelization
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and our Christian
church operations are the same.
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And in India, it really
hit me between the eyes,
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when I saw the
difficulty our church
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witness was
undergoing for many reasons
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but most particularly
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because even
though they were baptizing
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many, many people,
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when they came into the church,
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they would go to Loma
Linda or elsewhere to study
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and never come back.
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And the church was struggling
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for a lack of
competent trained workers
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because they had gone elsewhere.
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Yeah. I see that...
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And that really affected me
and made me just determined.
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I was going back to Australia,
whether they wanted me,
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I don't really know,
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but I was under great compulsion
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and I know that that phenomenon
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plays out not just in
India or in other places.
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We have
challenges too, you know,
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that as I said that
the training, you know,
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the experience and like a pastor
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or so evangelist
or like presidents,
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conference, you know, union,
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we have big
challenge in Pakistan.
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You know, our membership,
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I feel like dropped tremendously
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when I was there, you know,
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now I see our churches,
some places are very empty.
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I have in my ministry there was,
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I have a friend of mine
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that also work with
me and our assistant,
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one of our assistant,
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who works with us in God of Life
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International Ministry.
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He was in a church.
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We used to have
that church full.
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That was in
northern side of Pakistan
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and when he said
and he called me,
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he said, only two,
three people are sitting
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and I'm there.
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And that is
situation of our churches
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and, you know, then I
also went to see Pakistan,
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so I feel like
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there is some more
training needs to be done,
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more leadership
training needed there.
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And the vision
needs to be corrected too,
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you know, what we are...
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So it's less just
the declining interest
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than it is
difficulties in the community
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because it seems
to me in many cultures
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and Pakistan's one of them,
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where there's
whatever the majority religion,
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something else,
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to take on
Christianity as a minority,
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that takes a little
commitment and backing the trend
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so there are my people,
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but yet even
there they drift away.
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Yeah.
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The commitment, and dedication,
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and leadership, you
know, it helps, you know.
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The reason is
this that we are some,
00:11:00.62\00:11:03.02
I feel that there is
an oversight in our part,
00:11:03.06\00:11:05.89
we are not maybe
doing our part right.
00:11:05.93\00:11:08.73
We must, first of all,
00:11:08.76\00:11:10.10
we need to have a
sense of that evangelism,
00:11:10.13\00:11:14.07
we must reach people
what the Lord has said,
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what Jesus' message was,
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the healing
ministry of Jesus Christ
00:11:18.91\00:11:20.71
and also we need to
talk more about Holy Spirit
00:11:20.74\00:11:23.78
and we need to...
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the thing is this that
if we see our doctrine,
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you know, we are not I feel like
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that we should do more.
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The way I put it, you know,
and some non-Christians might,
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you know, the Holy Spirit,
it may not compute with them,
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but I've often said
on religious liberty
00:11:37.73\00:11:39.93
that there is way too
much religion in the world,
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but not enough spirituality.
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And all religion
of any consequence
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sees this aspect
00:11:48.44\00:11:49.77
and Christianity
takes it to another level
00:11:49.80\00:11:52.41
where the Holy Spirit
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is the indwelling
characteristics of God
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and the power of God.
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Without that, it's
just a belief system
00:11:58.81\00:12:00.75
and just a membership, a club,
00:12:00.78\00:12:03.02
and I could see why
00:12:03.05\00:12:05.25
other religions might even
be suspicious of a competitor,
00:12:05.29\00:12:08.62
but if we're bringing
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an innate
fulfillment to our life
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and the knowledge of the deity,
00:12:12.53\00:12:14.66
no other religion
should be offended by that.
00:12:14.70\00:12:17.67
Yeah.
00:12:17.70\00:12:19.03
I tell you...
00:12:19.07\00:12:20.40
You're bringing
psychological satisfaction
00:12:20.44\00:12:21.80
to your neighbors and
your fellow countrymen.
00:12:21.84\00:12:24.11
And I see, you know,
00:12:24.14\00:12:25.54
what Jesus did on this
planet or if we share Christ
00:12:25.57\00:12:29.71
and if you talk
about good things,
00:12:29.74\00:12:31.71
I don't think
people will be against you
00:12:31.75\00:12:34.02
even to any religion.
00:12:34.05\00:12:35.48
If you talk about
something good, you know,
00:12:35.52\00:12:38.05
you see the
people come, you know,
00:12:38.09\00:12:40.46
they are open to listen to you.
00:12:40.49\00:12:42.02
Yeah.
00:12:42.06\00:12:43.39
But only thing we
cannot offend their religion,
00:12:43.43\00:12:46.09
we cannot go
against their religion.
00:12:46.13\00:12:47.53
Absolutely.
00:12:47.56\00:12:48.90
But there is... You
show Christ like corrector,
00:12:48.93\00:12:51.13
so people get attracted
to you for good things.
00:12:51.17\00:12:53.87
I'm sure that's the secret to
where you're very successful...
00:12:53.90\00:12:58.91
I'm trying to think of how to,
00:12:58.94\00:13:00.28
pilgrimage is
back to your homeland.
00:13:00.31\00:13:02.14
Let's take a break
now, so please stay with us.
00:13:02.18\00:13:04.51
We'll return shortly
00:13:04.55\00:13:05.95
to continue this very
interesting discussion
00:13:05.98\00:13:09.15
of how Amjad is communicating
his faith in his homeland.
00:13:09.18\00:13:12.72
Thank you so much.
00:13:12.75\00:13:14.09