Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000345A
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00:25 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is the program for those of you, 00:29 particularly who are regular viewers, 00:31 that brings you news, views, updates, 00:33 discussion and analysis on religious liberty events 00:36 in the US and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:41 And my guest today is Stephen Mansfield. 00:46 I hesitated a bit, whether to put the doctor, 00:48 Dr. Stephen Mansfield. 00:49 Either way is fine. 00:51 We've already discussed a few very salient topics, 00:55 but I want to get to something that I know 00:56 you know a lot about. 00:58 Not least of which because you've recently 00:59 come back from Saudi Arabia. 01:01 We've all reading the newspaper headlines, 01:03 you know, Syria, 01:04 and Saudi Arabia is up for the snap, 01:06 the other way Iran, 01:07 that part of the world is infirming. 01:09 Arab Spring sprang and it wasn't very fresh 01:13 or at least it wasn't very attractive. 01:16 What's your take on what's happening there 01:19 in a general political point, 01:21 but the role of religion what, what... 01:25 Is it gonna get better, or worse, 01:26 or what hope is there 01:27 or how should we deal with Saudi Arabia and so on? 01:30 Well, I think that the religion is absolutely 01:33 the foundation of what's going on 01:34 in the Middle East. 01:36 And I think Islam is in upheaval. 01:38 What do you find at the root of all of these situations 01:40 in all the various nations 01:42 of the Middle East are various versions of Islam. 01:45 And then of course the political philosophy 01:47 that it produces. 01:49 I don't think Islam comes with healthful 01:52 or holistic political philosophy. 01:55 So while the people in the street 01:57 may bind with Islam maybe Muslim. 02:00 The fact is that it doesn't provide a governing philosophy. 02:03 Not so easily. No, not easily. 02:05 If they had a caliphate before 02:06 and even for it again but it's... 02:09 They have to unite. 02:11 Yeah, but if you have a tyranny, 02:12 you can put any religious coding, 02:14 like the Hitler would have had, had he had his way, 02:18 a Roman Catholic tyranny. 02:20 But Catholics would have said 02:21 "He wasn't anything connected to us at all. 02:23 And so I think that sort of what's going on the Caliphate 02:26 worked as a form of oppression and domination. 02:29 It wasn't, they didn't grow organically out of Islam. 02:31 So I think there's a, 02:33 there's real upheaval they're having, 02:35 we know the various lines Shia, Sunni etcetera. 02:39 But I think it's gonna get worse before it gets... 02:40 Those two, they don't know some of the other, 02:41 I mean there are Sufis and... 02:43 Sure, sure. 02:44 They don't realize that 02:46 the fighting is much broader than just the two. 02:50 That Ahmadiyya for example in Pakistan, 02:53 they can be imprisoned for seven years 02:55 just to give the Islamic greeting. 02:57 That's how other they're seen. 02:59 That's right. That's right. 03:00 And even the definition of secular, 03:02 I mean technically Turkey is the secular society. 03:04 Legally. 03:05 But everyone gets on again stands up 03:07 make speeches about retaking Jerusalem, 03:10 bombs his own Kurd 03:11 and it's clearly an extremist Islamist. 03:13 So and even the word secular 03:15 doesn't mean anything in that context. 03:17 No, I know you've dealt a lot with the Kurds. 03:18 Yes. 03:20 How do you see them, and they're Islamic, right? 03:24 The Kurds are 97 percent Muslim 03:26 but they are very, very different people group 03:29 from the rest of what you see there. 03:30 First of all the Kurds are not Arabs, 03:32 they are part of the sort of Persian side 03:34 of the ethnic to... 03:36 That's what I was trying to get you to bring out distinctly... 03:37 But the other thing is that 03:39 they have been so badly treated by their Islamic brothers 03:41 that their various thought was persecutions 03:43 inside on so and so on. 03:45 That the Kurds are for the most part pro-west, 03:48 they're modern Islam, they're actually, 03:50 many of them pro-Israel and they're pro-democracy. 03:53 And so they're really are some of the best allies 03:55 we could possibly have in the Middle East. 03:56 I think they frankly are an independent Kurdistan is 03:59 what's gonna be the world's next great nation. 04:00 I'll throw an interesting ideology, 04:01 see if you brought up, 04:03 I think they're the Hmong tribesmen of this world. 04:05 Yeah, could very well be, could very well be. 04:07 That's the function where... The Hmong were stretched out 04:11 over most of the Southeast Asian countries 04:14 as well as Vietnam. 04:15 Yeah. 04:17 And they for different reasons, 04:18 not least of which religion they were our allies, 04:19 but they were sort of another, other. 04:22 It's interesting too, 04:23 the Kurds are the largest people group in the world 04:25 without their own homeland. 04:26 35 million of them worldwide 04:28 and they don't have their own homeland. 04:30 So I think what's going to come of all those ferment 04:32 and upheaval in the Middle East is that 04:34 we see an independent Kurdistan. 04:38 And where does that leave Turkey, 04:39 you think they'll ever accept that? 04:41 I don't know whether they're gonna have much choice. 04:43 And by the way, 04:45 Turkey has been committing 04:46 absolute atrocities against their Kurds. 04:48 Absolutely. 04:50 And the international community is really compromised 04:52 by not dealing with this. 04:54 I mean everyone has actually been 04:55 bombing his own Kurdish population. 04:57 Now I want you to just picture 04:59 what that would mean in the United States 05:00 if we so then decided to bomb 05:02 Cherokee Reservations in Oklahoma, 05:04 I mean we just say it's just sort of atrocity. 05:05 As I remember it seems to be the war on the Kurdish faction 05:10 really led to his empowerment. 05:12 Yeah, yeah. 05:14 So it's not a little thing in Turkey, it's huge. 05:16 It is, it is. 05:17 But I think that the popular sentiment is changing. 05:21 But there is no question that the hardliner 05:24 can speak against the Kurds. 05:25 And we need to say too that Turkey's been battling the PKK 05:28 which is the sort of Marxist guerrilla element of Kurds. 05:33 But I have some sympathy for them, 05:35 though I'm not a Marxist and I'm not a guerrilla. 05:38 I have some sympathy for them 05:39 because they have been so oppressed, 05:41 I mean for long periods of time. 05:43 It was illegal to speak Kurdish language, 05:45 couldn't right a mayor of Diyarbakir went to jail 05:47 just for writing a Kurdish poetry. 05:49 It's been very, very oppressed ethnicity. 05:53 And I think their moment has come, 05:54 I think we're in a time of Kurdish moment. 05:56 Well, maybe that's the spin off from the whole area 06:00 that we're not talking about much 06:02 that a new people will arise rather than a youth caliphate. 06:05 Well, they are the one, 06:06 the primary boots on the ground against ISIS. 06:08 The Kurds are the primary boots on the ground 06:10 against Bashar al-Assad. 06:13 The Kurds I have are the primary ones 06:15 on the ground against Saddam. 06:17 They have been fighting our wars, 06:18 they are royal allies, 06:21 despite the fact that we many times betrayed them. 06:23 And I think their moment's coming, 06:25 we need to back them. 06:26 Now you were in Saudi Arabia, 06:27 was there any talk there 06:29 or acknowledgment of their war with the Yemen? 06:31 Yes, it's becoming a huge issue, 06:35 and the Saudis are very secretive society, 06:38 you know basically that it's one family 06:40 that rules the entire nation. 06:42 They got serious social problems. 06:44 About 25 percent of their population is in poverty. 06:46 You see the Saudi Sheiks and the royal family 06:49 and you assume that they're very wealthy 06:50 all the way through. 06:52 And there is a great deal of wealth in the country 06:53 because of petroleum. 06:55 But they have serious, serious social problems 06:57 and now this war with Yemen, 06:58 it's a proxy war but it's a war with Yemen, 07:02 is becoming absolutely brutal, 07:04 and it's of course whenever that happens, 07:06 it sort of like the Soviets in Afghanistan, 07:08 Assad in Vietnam, it can become the small war 07:11 you got into that then becomes the upheaval in your society. 07:15 You said proxy war but in what regards, 07:17 Saudi Arabia is bombing directly. 07:18 They're bombing directly 07:20 but the ground troops are from other nations, you know. 07:21 Oh, yeah, yeah, it's true. 07:23 But as I understand it, I mean it's very complicated, 07:24 much more than this, but on the simplest level, 07:27 these are Sunnis against Shias... 07:28 Yeah, yeah, which is the main fault line 07:30 in the Middle East. 07:31 I meant there are many Americans, 07:33 remember the Iran, Iraq war 07:35 which went on for almost a decade. 07:36 Again that was mainly Sunni versus Shia. 07:39 I think people know now that Iran is essentially Shia 07:42 and Iraq is majority Sunni and then the Kurds were mixed. 07:47 And this is the fault line that's existed for years. 07:50 But I don't think they know two things. 07:53 One I talk to you about, that Shias are the minority, 07:57 and that the Iranians are not Arabs. 08:00 Right. 08:02 Lot of them aren't, the Kurds aren't. 08:05 Well, yes it's a generality. 08:07 In the sense that the Iran is, 08:09 are the peoples that were Persians, 08:11 the Persian empire. 08:13 Yeah, on their fringes they have different tribes. 08:14 Right, sure. 08:15 Years and years ago, 08:17 my father just back before when the Shah was there 08:20 we went to Iran and went out in the country 08:22 and I saw that quickly. 08:23 Once you leave Tehran 08:25 which is relatively westernized city 08:28 or at least Frenchifieds. 08:31 Yeah. 08:33 That's a bit rude from an English point of view, 08:35 that's how we say. 08:37 Now it was like Paris in many parts. 08:39 Once you leave the city 08:40 and we then went out to a camp meeting 08:43 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church 08:44 way out in the country. 08:45 So I know there is Seventh-day Adventist even in that country. 08:47 Yeah, certainly. 08:49 That's not the vision you get now, it's, you know, 08:51 there's Mosul nothing but it's a interesting, 08:54 a very diverse country. 08:55 But I just think those two aspects are not 08:57 well recognized after all these years. 08:59 No, they're not. 09:00 And in particularly we don't know, for example 09:03 I go to Iraqi Kurdistan quite a bit, 09:05 there's actually a Christian department 09:06 in Iraqi Kurdistan, 09:08 there is actually Yazidis department. 09:09 So women walk the streets without burkas, 09:13 women have been on the Supreme Court, 09:14 there're women, you know, entrepreneurs. 09:17 It's astonishing what the Kurds are accomplishing 09:19 that's different. 09:21 In fact, I sat with senior mullah of Kurdistan 09:23 and he said I have no intention of letting 09:24 this extremism in here. 09:26 We are Kurds first, we are Muslim second. 09:28 Oh, that's good. 09:29 That will get you shot in other countries. 09:31 But this was the senior mullah of Kurdistan 09:32 telling me this so, 09:33 there are some really encouraging trends. 09:35 I think the United States is 09:36 not always on the right side of these things. 09:38 We tend to be always trying to curry favor Turkey 09:40 and the Saudis. 09:42 And I certainly think they should be allies 09:43 but I don't think they should be 09:44 the primary players in our scheme. 09:46 Well, we're running out of time, 09:49 but maybe wouldn't be such a bad thing for Turkey 09:52 if northern Iraq became a new Kurdistan 09:56 and their Kurds moved over, that would be their territory. 09:59 Well, PKK has been blowing up parts of Istanbul 10:02 and things like... 10:04 I know. 10:05 Why there's such animosity... It's getting worse. 10:07 That's why there's such animosity. 10:08 But I have to say it's a reaction 10:10 to being horribly treated. 10:11 So I think you're right, 10:12 if there could be an independent Kurdistan 10:14 right there in their ancient region and yeah, 10:16 carve off some sections of Syria, 10:18 and then Turkey and so on. 10:19 I think you find great deal of peace 10:21 and I think you find a very prosperous zone. 10:22 Kurds are very, very gifted at running a society. 10:25 You know history that certainly as far back as go for one, 10:32 we toyed with the Kurds 10:34 and it was self evident than that 10:36 they were almost separate province. 10:39 But the US wouldn't back them, we even let Saddam, 10:42 even during the no fly zone era, 10:45 he squashed them. 10:46 Yeah. 10:47 Well, we have agreements now 10:49 that require us to run our aid through Bagdad 10:51 or rather than directly to the Kurds. 10:53 And I got to say that's caused huge problems, 10:55 Bagdad was corrupt, 10:57 Iraqi army has abandoned all the weapons 10:59 we've given them in the field 11:01 they've actually become the property of ISIS. 11:02 We have been in essence been 11:04 supplying ISIS be at the Iraqi army. 11:05 Oh, yes. 11:06 So it's a real mess and a lot of it is 11:08 'cause we just won't directly deal with the Kurds. 11:10 Now that's starting to change now. 11:11 The Obama administration has begun to supply the Kurds 11:14 and work directly with them 11:15 but not on the scale that we need yet. 11:17 Well, it's a very complicated situation 11:20 and as Christians I'm sure we can, 11:25 one of the best things we can do is 11:26 pray that the Lord will bring peace 11:29 and religious opportunity there Yeah. 11:33 And it may come out of it yet. 11:34 Absolutely. 11:35 I mean it's a horrible way to get there 11:37 but this maybe the breaking open of some formally 11:41 tightly closed areas for the outside world generally 11:45 and for Christian evangelism. 11:46 Along the way that one 11:47 and I can't miss this chance on this program, 11:49 and I know you'd agree. 11:51 On one definition 11:52 what's happening in the Middle East is 11:54 the largest single expulsion of Christian 11:55 since the great persecutions 11:58 in the early days of Christianity. 11:59 Oh, there is no question, 12:00 in fact the liberation of Mosul will probably 12:02 displace over million people. 12:03 And the Kurds by the way have taken 12:04 several million into Iraqi Kurdistan already, 12:07 so they're gonna have to have help 12:08 if they're gonna have to absorb many more. 12:10 But, yeah, the writing things in the wake of ISIS 12:14 is going to produce a massive humanitarian crisis. 12:15 Maybe you know, 12:18 just barely got time to ask you the question. 12:20 When Mosul was taken over by ISIS, 12:24 there were many Christians there, 12:25 I don't know how many, 12:27 there were million Christians before the US invasion, 12:29 that was down to 12:32 by the time Mosul felt. 12:35 And I don't know how many of them were in Bagdad, 12:37 how many were in Mosul but 12:39 I've guessed maybe as many as 100,000. 12:41 Oh, yeah. 12:43 And they immediately fled or were killed, 12:45 there's none there now. 12:46 Hardly any. 12:48 Now, they'll come back 12:49 'cause that's the historic center of... 12:50 But do you know how many were killed, 12:52 is there any idea? 12:54 No, we don't know what the stats are yet. 12:55 Yeah, we saw pictures remember of them being crucified 12:57 we had and so on, horrible. 12:59 Yeah, yeah. 13:00 Many, many thousands. Yeah. 13:01 So when are you going back to the Middle East? 13:04 Probably over the next year, 13:05 early next year, early in 2017. 13:07 Which part, Kurdistan? 13:08 I'll go to Iraqi Kurdistan, yeah. 13:09 And then to Turkey. 13:11 Well, and feel free to write an article for Liberty. 13:15 And certainly wish you the best on that 13:17 and your writing and your travels around the world, 13:21 dealing with freedom issues. 13:22 Thank you very much. 13:24 And of course your mainly man program. 13:26 Okay. 13:27 Always think of Mansfield. 13:29 Mansfield which I am. Mainly man program. 13:32 But just one last word, where is it going? 13:37 Nobody knows but you might as well give a, you know, 13:39 TVs full of people, 13:41 that they're talking heads that pontificate. 13:43 What's your vision for the Middle East? 13:45 I think what's happening in the Middle East is that 13:48 essentially it's writing itself. 13:50 The agreements after World War I 13:52 drew artificial lines, 13:54 kept the people in the form of bondage, 13:56 put oppressive regimes and power, 13:58 and I think that those are being broken up, 14:00 and because it's all we've known, 14:01 we think that this a disorder, 14:03 but I think that 14:04 it's actually gonna be a good writing long-term. |
Revised 2016-12-26