Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program for those of you,
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particularly who
are regular viewers,
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that brings you
news, views, updates,
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discussion and analysis
on religious liberty events
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest today
is Stephen Mansfield.
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I hesitated a bit,
whether to put the doctor,
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Dr. Stephen Mansfield.
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Either way is fine.
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We've already discussed
a few very salient topics,
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but I want to get to
something that I know
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you know a lot about.
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Not least of which
because you've recently
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come back from Saudi Arabia.
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We've all reading
the newspaper headlines,
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you know, Syria,
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and Saudi Arabia
is up for the snap,
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the other way Iran,
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that part of the
world is infirming.
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Arab Spring sprang
and it wasn't very fresh
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or at least it
wasn't very attractive.
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What's your take on
what's happening there
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in a general political point,
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but the role of
religion what, what...
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Is it gonna get
better, or worse,
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or what hope is there
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or how should we deal
with Saudi Arabia and so on?
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Well, I think that
the religion is absolutely
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the foundation
of what's going on
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in the Middle East.
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And I think
Islam is in upheaval.
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What do you find at the
root of all of these situations
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in all the various nations
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of the Middle East are
various versions of Islam.
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And then of course
the political philosophy
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that it produces.
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I don't think Islam
comes with healthful
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or holistic
political philosophy.
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So while the
people in the street
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may bind with
Islam maybe Muslim.
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The fact is that it doesn't
provide a governing philosophy.
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Not so easily. No, not easily.
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If they had a caliphate before
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and even for it
again but it's...
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They have to unite.
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Yeah, but if you have a tyranny,
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you can put any
religious coding,
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like the Hitler would
have had, had he had his way,
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a Roman Catholic tyranny.
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But Catholics would have said
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"He wasn't anything
connected to us at all.
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And so I think that sort of
what's going on the Caliphate
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worked as a form of
oppression and domination.
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It wasn't, they didn't
grow organically out of Islam.
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So I think there's a,
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there's real
upheaval they're having,
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we know the various
lines Shia, Sunni etcetera.
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But I think it's gonna
get worse before it gets...
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Those two, they don't
know some of the other,
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I mean there are Sufis and...
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Sure, sure.
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They don't realize that
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the fighting is much
broader than just the two.
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That Ahmadiyya for
example in Pakistan,
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they can be
imprisoned for seven years
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just to give the
Islamic greeting.
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That's how other they're seen.
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That's right. That's right.
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And even the
definition of secular,
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I mean technically
Turkey is the secular society.
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Legally.
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But everyone gets
on again stands up
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make speeches
about retaking Jerusalem,
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bombs his own Kurd
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and it's clearly
an extremist Islamist.
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So and even the word secular
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doesn't mean
anything in that context.
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No, I know you've
dealt a lot with the Kurds.
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Yes.
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How do you see them,
and they're Islamic, right?
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The Kurds are 97 percent Muslim
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but they are very,
very different people group
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from the rest of
what you see there.
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First of all the
Kurds are not Arabs,
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they are part of
the sort of Persian side
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of the ethnic to...
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That's what I was trying to get
you to bring out distinctly...
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But the other thing is that
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they have been so badly treated
by their Islamic brothers
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that their various
thought was persecutions
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inside on so and so on.
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That the Kurds are for
the most part pro-west,
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they're modern
Islam, they're actually,
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many of them pro-Israel
and they're pro-democracy.
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And so they're really
are some of the best allies
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we could possibly
have in the Middle East.
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I think they frankly are
an independent Kurdistan is
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what's gonna be the
world's next great nation.
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I'll throw an
interesting ideology,
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see if you brought up,
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I think they're the
Hmong tribesmen of this world.
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Yeah, could very well
be, could very well be.
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That's the function where...
The Hmong were stretched out
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over most of the
Southeast Asian countries
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as well as Vietnam.
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Yeah.
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And they for different reasons,
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not least of which
religion they were our allies,
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but they were
sort of another, other.
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It's interesting too,
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the Kurds are the largest
people group in the world
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without their own homeland.
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35 million of them worldwide
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and they don't
have their own homeland.
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So I think what's going
to come of all those ferment
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and upheaval in
the Middle East is that
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we see an independent Kurdistan.
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And where does
that leave Turkey,
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you think
they'll ever accept that?
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I don't know whether
they're gonna have much choice.
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And by the way,
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Turkey has been committing
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absolute atrocities
against their Kurds.
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Absolutely.
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And the international
community is really compromised
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by not dealing with this.
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I mean everyone
has actually been
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bombing his own
Kurdish population.
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Now I want you to just picture
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what that would
mean in the United States
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if we so then decided to bomb
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Cherokee
Reservations in Oklahoma,
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I mean we just say
it's just sort of atrocity.
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As I remember it seems to be
the war on the Kurdish faction
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really led to his empowerment.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So it's not a little
thing in Turkey, it's huge.
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It is, it is.
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But I think that the
popular sentiment is changing.
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But there is no
question that the hardliner
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can speak against the Kurds.
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And we need to say too that
Turkey's been battling the PKK
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which is the sort of Marxist
guerrilla element of Kurds.
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But I have some
sympathy for them,
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though I'm not a
Marxist and I'm not a guerrilla.
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I have some sympathy for them
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because they have
been so oppressed,
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I mean for long periods of time.
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It was illegal to
speak Kurdish language,
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couldn't right a mayor
of Diyarbakir went to jail
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just for writing
a Kurdish poetry.
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It's been very,
very oppressed ethnicity.
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And I think
their moment has come,
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I think we're in a
time of Kurdish moment.
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Well, maybe that's the
spin off from the whole area
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that we're not
talking about much
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that a new people will arise
rather than a youth caliphate.
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Well, they are the one,
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the primary boots on
the ground against ISIS.
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The Kurds are the
primary boots on the ground
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against Bashar al-Assad.
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The Kurds I have
are the primary ones
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on the ground against Saddam.
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They have been
fighting our wars,
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they are royal allies,
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despite the fact that we
many times betrayed them.
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And I think
their moment's coming,
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we need to back them.
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Now you were in Saudi Arabia,
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was there any talk there
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or acknowledgment of
their war with the Yemen?
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Yes, it's becoming a huge issue,
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and the Saudis are
very secretive society,
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you know basically
that it's one family
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that rules the entire nation.
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They got
serious social problems.
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About 25 percent of
their population is in poverty.
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You see the Saudi
Sheiks and the royal family
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and you assume that
they're very wealthy
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all the way through.
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And there is a great
deal of wealth in the country
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because of petroleum.
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But they have serious,
serious social problems
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and now this war with Yemen,
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it's a proxy war but
it's a war with Yemen,
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is becoming absolutely brutal,
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and it's of course
whenever that happens,
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it sort of like the
Soviets in Afghanistan,
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Assad in Vietnam, it
can become the small war
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you got into that then becomes
the upheaval in your society.
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You said proxy war
but in what regards,
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Saudi Arabia is
bombing directly.
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They're bombing directly
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but the ground troops are
from other nations, you know.
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Oh, yeah, yeah, it's true.
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But as I understand it, I
mean it's very complicated,
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much more than this,
but on the simplest level,
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these are
Sunnis against Shias...
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Yeah, yeah, which
is the main fault line
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in the Middle East.
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I meant there
are many Americans,
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remember the Iran, Iraq war
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which went on
for almost a decade.
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Again that was
mainly Sunni versus Shia.
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I think people know now
that Iran is essentially Shia
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and Iraq is majority Sunni
and then the Kurds were mixed.
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And this is the fault
line that's existed for years.
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But I don't think
they know two things.
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One I talk to you about,
that Shias are the minority,
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and that the
Iranians are not Arabs.
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Right.
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Lot of them
aren't, the Kurds aren't.
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Well, yes it's a generality.
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In the sense that the Iran is,
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are the peoples
that were Persians,
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the Persian empire.
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Yeah, on their fringes
they have different tribes.
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Right, sure.
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Years and years ago,
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my father just back
before when the Shah was there
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we went to Iran and
went out in the country
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and I saw that quickly.
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Once you leave Tehran
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which is
relatively westernized city
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or at least Frenchifieds.
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Yeah.
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That's a bit rude from
an English point of view,
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that's how we say.
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Now it was like
Paris in many parts.
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Once you leave the city
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and we then went
out to a camp meeting
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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way out in the country.
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So I know there is Seventh-day
Adventist even in that country.
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Yeah, certainly.
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That's not the vision
you get now, it's, you know,
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there's Mosul nothing
but it's a interesting,
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a very diverse country.
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But I just think
those two aspects are not
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well recognized
after all these years.
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No, they're not.
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And in particularly we
don't know, for example
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I go to Iraqi
Kurdistan quite a bit,
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there's actually a
Christian department
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in Iraqi Kurdistan,
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there is actually
Yazidis department.
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So women walk the
streets without burkas,
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women have been
on the Supreme Court,
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there're women, you
know, entrepreneurs.
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It's astonishing what
the Kurds are accomplishing
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that's different.
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In fact, I sat with
senior mullah of Kurdistan
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and he said I have
no intention of letting
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this extremism in here.
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We are Kurds first,
we are Muslim second.
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Oh, that's good.
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That will get you
shot in other countries.
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But this was the
senior mullah of Kurdistan
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telling me this so,
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there are some
really encouraging trends.
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I think the United States is
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not always on the
right side of these things.
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We tend to be always
trying to curry favor Turkey
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and the Saudis.
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And I certainly
think they should be allies
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but I don't think they should be
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the primary
players in our scheme.
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Well, we're running out of time,
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but maybe wouldn't be
such a bad thing for Turkey
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if northern Iraq
became a new Kurdistan
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and their Kurds moved over,
that would be their territory.
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Well, PKK has been
blowing up parts of Istanbul
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and things like...
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I know.
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Why there's such
animosity... It's getting worse.
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That's why
there's such animosity.
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But I have to
say it's a reaction
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to being horribly treated.
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So I think you're right,
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if there could be an
independent Kurdistan
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right there in their
ancient region and yeah,
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carve off some
sections of Syria,
00:10:16.38\00:10:18.11
and then Turkey and so on.
00:10:18.15\00:10:19.48
I think you find
great deal of peace
00:10:19.51\00:10:21.02
and I think you find
a very prosperous zone.
00:10:21.05\00:10:22.88
Kurds are very, very
gifted at running a society.
00:10:22.92\00:10:25.89
You know history that certainly
as far back as go for one,
00:10:25.92\00:10:32.36
we toyed with the Kurds
00:10:32.39\00:10:34.26
and it was self
evident than that
00:10:34.30\00:10:36.03
they were almost
separate province.
00:10:36.06\00:10:39.40
But the US wouldn't back
them, we even let Saddam,
00:10:39.43\00:10:42.90
even during the no fly zone era,
00:10:42.94\00:10:45.21
he squashed them.
00:10:45.24\00:10:46.57
Yeah.
00:10:46.61\00:10:47.94
Well, we have agreements now
00:10:47.98\00:10:49.31
that require us to
run our aid through Bagdad
00:10:49.34\00:10:51.51
or rather than
directly to the Kurds.
00:10:51.55\00:10:53.48
And I got to say
that's caused huge problems,
00:10:53.52\00:10:55.62
Bagdad was corrupt,
00:10:55.65\00:10:57.52
Iraqi army has
abandoned all the weapons
00:10:57.55\00:10:59.95
we've given them in the field
00:10:59.99\00:11:01.32
they've actually
become the property of ISIS.
00:11:01.36\00:11:02.79
We have been in essence been
00:11:02.82\00:11:04.16
supplying ISIS be
at the Iraqi army.
00:11:04.19\00:11:05.53
Oh, yes.
00:11:05.56\00:11:06.90
So it's a real
mess and a lot of it is
00:11:06.93\00:11:08.70
'cause we just won't
directly deal with the Kurds.
00:11:08.73\00:11:10.53
Now that's
starting to change now.
00:11:10.57\00:11:11.90
The Obama administration
has begun to supply the Kurds
00:11:11.93\00:11:14.34
and work directly with them
00:11:14.37\00:11:15.70
but not on the
scale that we need yet.
00:11:15.74\00:11:17.57
Well, it's a very
complicated situation
00:11:17.61\00:11:20.64
and as
Christians I'm sure we can,
00:11:20.68\00:11:25.01
one of the best
things we can do is
00:11:25.05\00:11:26.38
pray that the
Lord will bring peace
00:11:26.41\00:11:29.72
and religious
opportunity there Yeah.
00:11:29.75\00:11:33.02
And it may come out of it yet.
00:11:33.05\00:11:34.42
Absolutely.
00:11:34.46\00:11:35.79
I mean it's a
horrible way to get there
00:11:35.82\00:11:37.69
but this maybe the
breaking open of some formally
00:11:37.73\00:11:41.73
tightly closed areas for
the outside world generally
00:11:41.76\00:11:45.03
and for Christian evangelism.
00:11:45.07\00:11:46.40
Along the way that one
00:11:46.43\00:11:47.77
and I can't miss this
chance on this program,
00:11:47.80\00:11:49.94
and I know you'd agree.
00:11:49.97\00:11:51.31
On one definition
00:11:51.34\00:11:52.67
what's happening
in the Middle East is
00:11:52.71\00:11:54.04
the largest single
expulsion of Christian
00:11:54.08\00:11:55.78
since the great persecutions
00:11:55.81\00:11:58.08
in the early
days of Christianity.
00:11:58.11\00:11:59.45
Oh, there is no question,
00:11:59.48\00:12:00.82
in fact the liberation
of Mosul will probably
00:12:00.85\00:12:02.18
displace over million people.
00:12:02.22\00:12:03.55
And the Kurds by
the way have taken
00:12:03.59\00:12:04.92
several million into
Iraqi Kurdistan already,
00:12:04.95\00:12:07.52
so they're gonna
have to have help
00:12:07.56\00:12:08.89
if they're gonna
have to absorb many more.
00:12:08.92\00:12:10.79
But, yeah, the writing
things in the wake of ISIS
00:12:10.83\00:12:14.00
is going to produce a
massive humanitarian crisis.
00:12:14.03\00:12:15.70
Maybe you know,
00:12:15.73\00:12:18.80
just barely got time
to ask you the question.
00:12:18.83\00:12:20.77
When Mosul was
taken over by ISIS,
00:12:20.80\00:12:24.31
there were many
Christians there,
00:12:24.34\00:12:25.67
I don't know how many,
00:12:25.71\00:12:27.04
there were million Christians
before the US invasion,
00:12:27.08\00:12:29.34
that was down to
00:12:29.38\00:12:32.88
by the time Mosul felt.
00:12:32.91\00:12:35.35
And I don't know how
many of them were in Bagdad,
00:12:35.38\00:12:37.82
how many were in Mosul but
00:12:37.85\00:12:39.35
I've guessed maybe
as many as 100,000.
00:12:39.39\00:12:41.72
Oh, yeah.
00:12:41.76\00:12:43.09
And they
immediately fled or were killed,
00:12:43.12\00:12:45.19
there's none there now.
00:12:45.23\00:12:46.70
Hardly any.
00:12:46.73\00:12:48.06
Now, they'll come back
00:12:48.10\00:12:49.46
'cause that's the
historic center of...
00:12:49.50\00:12:50.93
But do you know
how many were killed,
00:12:50.97\00:12:52.60
is there any idea?
00:12:52.63\00:12:53.97
No, we don't know
what the stats are yet.
00:12:54.00\00:12:55.37
Yeah, we saw pictures
remember of them being crucified
00:12:55.40\00:12:57.61
we had and so on, horrible.
00:12:57.64\00:12:58.97
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:59.01\00:13:00.34
Many, many thousands. Yeah.
00:13:00.38\00:13:01.71
So when are you going
back to the Middle East?
00:13:01.74\00:13:04.28
Probably over the next year,
00:13:04.31\00:13:05.71
early next year, early in 2017.
00:13:05.75\00:13:07.08
Which part, Kurdistan?
00:13:07.12\00:13:08.45
I'll go to
Iraqi Kurdistan, yeah.
00:13:08.48\00:13:09.82
And then to Turkey.
00:13:09.85\00:13:11.19
Well, and feel free to
write an article for Liberty.
00:13:11.22\00:13:15.46
And certainly wish
you the best on that
00:13:15.49\00:13:17.53
and your writing and
your travels around the world,
00:13:17.56\00:13:21.50
dealing with freedom issues.
00:13:21.53\00:13:22.86
Thank you very much.
00:13:22.90\00:13:24.23
And of course your
mainly man program.
00:13:24.27\00:13:26.37
Okay.
00:13:26.40\00:13:27.74
Always think of Mansfield.
00:13:27.77\00:13:29.30
Mansfield which I
am. Mainly man program.
00:13:29.34\00:13:32.84
But just one last
word, where is it going?
00:13:32.87\00:13:37.45
Nobody knows but you
might as well give a, you know,
00:13:37.48\00:13:39.65
TVs full of people,
00:13:39.68\00:13:41.02
that they're talking
heads that pontificate.
00:13:41.05\00:13:43.79
What's your vision
for the Middle East?
00:13:43.82\00:13:45.69
I think what's happening
in the Middle East is that
00:13:45.72\00:13:48.12
essentially it's writing itself.
00:13:48.16\00:13:50.79
The agreements after World War I
00:13:50.83\00:13:52.69
drew artificial lines,
00:13:52.73\00:13:54.10
kept the people in
the form of bondage,
00:13:54.13\00:13:56.50
put oppressive
regimes and power,
00:13:56.53\00:13:58.43
and I think that
those are being broken up,
00:13:58.47\00:14:00.07
and because
it's all we've known,
00:14:00.10\00:14:01.50
we think that this a disorder,
00:14:01.54\00:14:03.17
but I think that
00:14:03.20\00:14:04.61
it's actually gonna be
a good writing long-term.
00:14:04.64\00:14:06.68