Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000344A
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00:26 Welcome, to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is a regular program, 00:29 and I hope you are a regular viewer, 00:31 that brings you news, views, 00:33 up-to-date information, discussion, 00:35 and analysis of religious liberty developments 00:38 in the U.S. and around the world. 00:41 My name, I'm ahead of myself is Lincoln Steed, 00:44 editor of Liberty magazine. 00:45 And my guest on the program Dr. Stephen Mansfield, 00:48 author, lecturer, 00:52 and the originator of the Manly Men, 00:56 well, how will I characterize it, it's a movement. 00:57 It's a movement. It's a movement. Yeah. 00:59 And I know you've written 01:01 at least one book on that, probably more. 01:02 Yes. 01:04 Explain what this movement is. 01:07 We all want to be manly men. 01:09 So it's I'm sure it has a positive resonance. 01:11 Well, you know, 01:13 I was just going along as an American male, 01:15 and I began to notice how men are presented in the media. 01:18 I began to notice the decline of men in our culture. 01:22 Men are declining by almost every measurable statistic. 01:25 And I began to have conversations 01:26 with the young kids I hang out with 01:28 on college campuses after I lecture, 01:29 I'd rather would be with the students 01:31 than the faculty. 01:32 And I began to realize, we're in real crisis 01:33 about manhood in this society, really, really hurting. 01:35 I celebrate the achievements of women, 01:37 it's not a tug of war, but men are in decline. 01:39 So I wrote a book called Mansfield's Book of Manly Men 01:42 and it just exploded. 01:44 Number of... 01:45 Major media figures got excited about it 01:47 and it really took off. 01:48 So I felt myself doing men's gathering, 01:50 it's all around the world. 01:52 And it's very interesting to see 01:53 what's happening with men 01:55 and how they are responding and the help they need. 01:57 But to put it in brief, 01:59 there is a philosophy or a view on the college campuses 02:03 that's prevailing. 02:04 And it is that, you know, women are very suited 02:07 to this digital information age that we're living in. 02:10 But while we needed men when we, you know, 02:12 taming the frontiers, raising the steel, 02:14 and putting down the railway tracks, and so on. 02:16 Now at a digital age, they can't function, 02:18 they can't function well. 02:20 And so I call this The Gorilla Theory of Men 02:21 that we needed them when we needed their muscle 02:23 but we don't need them now. 02:24 A glorious time, a stardom in that group 02:26 in her previous separation, pretty much held that, really. 02:29 Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. 02:31 Well, and so now men are sitting in their cages, 02:32 eating their bananas, scratching their heads, 02:34 and trying to figure out, you know, what's going on. 02:36 But the people who are really suffering 02:38 from this loss of manhood are the boys. 02:40 The statistics on boys are just devastating. 02:44 And so I'm trying to encourage men to be noblemen, 02:47 and by the way this recent presidential election 02:50 has really highlighted some of the issues of manhood. 02:52 And, you know, we've got two former president 02:56 and man running for president, who were, you know, 02:59 raising questions on what's appropriate for men, 03:00 and what is the old-boy network, 03:02 and what is the locker room language, 03:03 and what's appropriate for men. 03:05 So I think we're really at a dramatic crossroads now 03:08 with manhood in America. 03:09 Yeah. I'm agreeing with you. 03:11 And I'm going to link it to something 03:12 that's been a concern 03:14 or is that a growing concern for a religious liberty, 03:16 and the whole gay movement. 03:21 And I'm not an expert, there's many 03:25 physical and psychological backgrounds to that. 03:28 But by my observation, the women's led movement, 03:33 emasculated male prerogatives I think in many ways. 03:38 And that's continued. 03:39 And then I even think 03:41 and this is where I'm leading it. 03:43 I think this a the very least a lifestyle 03:48 but perhaps even 03:51 a chemical element to this 03:55 in the western world in the U.S. 03:57 where the food is doped to the limit. 04:02 I think there is an emasculation going on. 04:05 And so you can only deal through these programs with, 04:09 you know, behavior 04:11 and reinstating a value in someone. 04:14 But I think the... 04:16 My real point is that 04:17 I think the deck that's stacked against males 04:19 in this new era, 04:25 that they are establishing, 04:27 sort of this new idea, 04:28 global us because it's trying to create a unisex culture. 04:32 It's trying to diminish the fact 04:34 that there is any difference 04:36 either genetically or behaviorally. 04:37 Yeah. 04:39 And so you in a way 04:40 you're backing against the social trend. 04:41 Even though, it's very biblical. 04:43 No. There is no question. No question about it. 04:44 I do run on a different idea by you 04:47 because I am of the view that women 04:50 and asserting their rights and their liberties 04:52 didn't take anything from men that men had abandoned already. 04:56 I'm not saying, 04:58 I'm with every aspect of the feminist movement, 05:00 of course, 05:01 as a biblical Christian, that wouldn't be the case. 05:03 But the decline of manhood 05:05 it was occurring as early as 1800s or late 1800s. 05:08 In fact, you know, Theodore Roosevelt 05:10 was the product of renewal of manhood 05:12 and a kind of a men's moment 05:13 that was happening at the time he was at Harvard. 05:16 And so that decline is continued, 05:18 and I think some people want to point at the 1970s 05:20 and say boom that's the moment happened, 05:22 manhood was perfect before. 05:23 It's the industrial revolution proved about anything, 05:25 the change in and the way incomes were in and, you know, 05:30 in England, in early days, 05:32 the little kids seven or eight years old, 05:34 they're working, 05:35 the mother is working, the father is working, 05:37 he is not really the bread winner. 05:38 Right. 05:39 And then in the U.S. 05:41 when it became an absolute necessity for two incomes, 05:44 then, yes, I think the role of men 05:47 while it might be still important, 05:49 it's not the old one, it's not... 05:50 Well, and there is also a Colombia female scholar 05:54 who wrote a book called the Feminization of America 05:56 and she makes the case 05:57 that it really was the raise of the theological liberalism 05:59 in the late 1800s that unmanned Christianity. 06:04 And therefore, then that continued 06:06 to have influence on society. 06:07 So, you know, we can debate the sources, 06:09 and I think it is a fascinating debate, 06:10 and I think it's an important debate. 06:12 But yeah, what we do about it? 06:13 The reality is that the most men are in doubt, 06:16 in question, and in confusion about their role models. 06:20 The society wants to say, 06:22 "Well, let's not have John Wayne type role models," 06:23 'cause that produce rapists and abusers and what have you. 06:26 And I've been, of course, nobody is trying 06:28 to turn everybody into above us but at the same time, 06:31 I do think we needed 06:33 restoration of righteous nobleman. 06:34 I think that the biblical Christianity 06:36 produces not a domineering, bigoted kind of manhood 06:41 but a noble, I call it great manhood 06:43 'cause we actually do it great man 06:44 with the two words run together is kind of our logo. 06:47 But great manhood is Christ like, Godly, servant oriented, 06:50 taking responsibility, 06:53 building a righteous generation out of the children, 06:55 kind of manhood. 06:56 And I think it's something we desperately need. 06:58 Do you connect any of it back to theology? 07:01 Sure. 07:02 You know, there was clearly a moment, 07:04 I don't know when it began but 10, 07:06 no, no, more than 10, 20, 30 years ago 07:08 to present God as female. 07:11 Yeah. Yeah. 07:12 And I'm positive God's nor male nor female 07:16 but the Bible clearly stated 07:20 the gender roles as sort of modeling for us 07:23 and men and women who tried to follow it. 07:27 But he had to suddenly radically shift that. 07:29 That had do have cut men loose from biblical model. 07:33 Well, you know, what's you often to have 07:34 is that dynamic attention that Hegel talked about, 07:36 you know, you got thesis, synthesis, antithesis. 07:39 What happens is that the feminist movement 07:41 was often reacting to extremes that men had brought along. 07:44 For example, we all know that 07:46 since men and women have made the image of God, 07:47 the God has both feminine and the masculine in him 07:50 in some way that's grandeur 07:52 then we can even begin to understand. 07:53 So for centuries, God had been portrayed as all male 07:56 and femininity is secondary and somehow diminished. 07:59 Well, so when the feminist movement began, 08:01 they reversed the order and said, "God is female," 08:04 and it was an overreaction 08:05 to what had been an over statement to begin with. 08:07 Yeah. And so I lay both that sides. 08:09 So let's just be biblical, there is no question, 08:10 God is both male and female as we humans understand it. 08:14 And when we get to have Him, we're going to say, 08:15 "Yeah, there it is, beautifully portrayed both of them." 08:18 Women are made the image of God, 08:20 men are made the image of God 08:22 and, of course, the feminist movement 08:23 and it says that's wrong in presenting her as a female, 08:25 as the men were presenting him as male 08:28 without any with female 08:29 because it's sort of like an afterthought. 08:30 I read a lot of stuff on humans, 08:33 one of their attributes is try to see patterns in life. 08:35 Yes. 08:37 And so I tried to see patterns, I mean, 08:38 not because I read the article. 08:39 And I can remember as a kid very young in Australia 08:43 going to Hyde Park which was modeled 08:45 after Hyde Park in London 08:47 where you, on a Sunday, 08:49 you can take your literal soapbox 08:51 and stand up and spat against church, 08:53 government, king, queen, or whatever. 08:55 And they wouldn't touch you, you could say anything, 08:57 communism was spread. 08:59 And I used to listen a lot of it 09:00 and then I heard a lot of these types going on and on 09:03 about against the patristic society and all of those. 09:06 And it was socialism, 09:08 it was realistic sort of anarchism, 09:13 and I believe that feminism and the gay movement 09:16 is bigger than those two movements alone. 09:18 That's why I tried to connect it 09:20 to the industrial society, 09:21 I think are rethinking of the whole society 09:24 from a radical, seculars view point, 09:26 there is a master plan that really, 09:30 if I'd connect it with anything, 09:32 it's anarchism. 09:33 And most people think anarchism is just lawlessness, it's not. 09:37 It was without the king, it's the rule of you, 09:39 you are a God in your own ride. 09:41 Right. Right. 09:42 And I think it's a place still 09:44 through some of these movements. 09:45 Well, that has not served cause of men very well. 09:49 I've written a little booklet to go with my book 09:51 Mansfield's Book of Manly Men 09:52 and it's called Building Your Band of Brothers. 09:54 And what I contend is 09:56 that the average man walks alone today. 09:58 He doesn't have significant men in his life. 10:02 You know, we get busy with jobs, and children, 10:03 and houses, and careers, and what have you. 10:05 And at some point, we find ourselves walking alone. 10:07 I say that the one of the arts of manhood 10:09 is to build a band of brothers around you. 10:11 Men who love you but are afraid of you 10:12 will say what needs to be said. 10:14 And I urge them to have 10:15 as their goal of free fire zone, 10:17 which means that men are together 10:19 and they can say anything to each other 10:20 that helps them to be better. 10:22 The fact is we have that naturally when we were kids. 10:24 We had it naturally in high school 10:25 or in our sports teams. 10:27 We lose it as we get older. 10:28 So the radical anarchism, 10:31 which makes everyman his own island, 10:33 keeps us from benefiting each other. 10:35 Men need masculine community, 10:36 as the same way women need feminine community. 10:38 Yes, my wife has a snipe at me now and then, 10:40 "Oh, you don't have a lot of friends." 10:41 Well, I'm friendly to people and I have a few 10:45 but I thought of that since she said that. 10:47 When we have friends outside work, 10:49 that people that she were friends 10:50 and I seen sort of come along. 10:52 And I've seen other people, I know it's not that uncommon. 10:54 No. Yes. You're right. 10:55 You're not gathering your buddies around 10:57 like they used to unless you're real macho guy 11:00 that goes to the nightclub or whatever regularly 11:03 and he's left the family line, and that's not right. 11:05 Well, and so the question is 11:07 what is that men have dropped off 11:09 and keeps them from having them that kind of community. 11:10 I think men need to have hobbies, 11:12 they need to have sports, 11:13 they need to have things they do 11:14 at every age, but it's a very serious issue. 11:18 I mean... Where's my wife? 11:20 She doesn't quite buy that obviously. 11:23 Obviously, it's correct. 11:24 It's absolute where we have new ways to teach boys 11:26 how to do it as well. 11:27 In England, one of the most rising areas of concern 11:32 is that men over 50 are committing suicide 11:34 in huge numbers. 11:36 When we do the post-mortem, 11:37 psychologically as well as physically, 11:39 we find out that it was loneliness. 11:41 I slated alone, you know, and then, of course, 11:44 you add to this to the decline of the family, 11:45 most of the young men aren't fathered. 11:48 So we desperately need for men to begin to pull that together. 11:52 I have talked to professional men all the time, 11:54 I'm talking about successful men like yourself. 11:56 And many times, they can't name a best friend 11:59 one of the tell-all questions is, 12:01 who would you call to get yourself outside of jail 12:04 at 3:00 in the morning if you are out of the town. 12:06 Most men can't name that person. 12:07 They don't have a best friend, they don't have anybody 12:09 speaking other than wife 12:10 and quick little humorous illustration. 12:12 Somebody handed me a photograph not too long ago 12:14 of a picture taken at a party, 12:16 and I looked at the picture said, "Who is that?" 12:18 And they said it's you and what did happened was, 12:21 they just happened to have caught me at a moment, 12:23 you know, we all have those ugly moments in photographs. 12:25 And I won't go into the details 12:26 but I got to think looking at that picture and thinking, 12:28 "If I can look like that and don't know it, 12:31 what else can't I see about myself?" 12:33 Because we all... 12:35 We can't see ourselves accurately alone. 12:37 So if men are going to become noble and achieve 12:40 and be with their family what they are meant to be, 12:42 they are going to have a band of brothers around them 12:44 and most men walk alone into their destruction 12:47 and it's a real trend. 12:50 Yeah. 12:51 I think it's a very healthy moment 12:53 that you're trying to start and I know there's others. 12:57 Oh, yeah. 12:58 Privately we would talk about who that was a figure 13:02 few decades ago he used to have 13:03 these retreats for men where they would... 13:05 He is one of my... Sit around the fire at night. 13:07 Yeah, he's a hero of mine, John Eldredge. 13:10 And he wrote a book called Wild at Heart 13:11 and he was talking to men 13:12 about the uniqueness of their hearts 13:14 as opposed to women and what that meant 13:15 and how they need to take responsibilities 13:17 for the "Wildness in their hearts" 13:18 and he defines that biblically. 13:20 But I see that as a precursor to what I'm doing absolutely. 13:24 But you just wouldn't believe the response to this, you know, 13:29 the first major media figure to pick up this book 13:32 was Glenn Back. 13:33 And by the next Monday morning on his show, 13:35 he was saying this book can change America, 13:36 I'm not bragging about the book, 13:38 I'm saying that's how exciting it was. 13:39 I went to the Philippines 13:40 and I did five gigantic men's gatherings 13:44 thousands and thousands of men. 13:46 And as many were turned away 13:47 because there's something who wasn't in the room 13:49 and now we are looking at doing at stadium of that. 13:51 It's a desperate issue 13:53 this election season has only heightened those issues. 13:55 And men are feeling it, men are feeling, 13:57 they are feeling the decline, they are feeling the loss, 13:59 and a horrible trends like men's health 14:02 and men's suicide rates are just confirming... 14:05 How do you avoid what, you know, 14:07 you're getting paired up with me. 14:08 And I thought it's not the first time 14:10 I saw that the legacy when my wife challenged me. 14:12 I've sort of self-analyzed 14:14 and I've read it say very recently 14:15 that yes, I think it's three years 14:18 is a very high number of the close there is no male. 14:22 Yeah. Yeah. 14:24 But, you know, in today's world, 14:26 if you're, unless you're real metro sexual, 14:30 it seems to me just to uncritically be familiar 14:35 on a personal level of too many males, 14:39 you sort of know what's going to happen. 14:40 Yeah. Yeah. And you avoid that. 14:42 Well, I mean, I'm urging a kind of biblical manhood. 14:46 So there are boundaries put in place, 14:48 and there are, you know, we're not just getting together 14:51 to get drunk or to go hit up the girls or whatever, 14:53 we're getting together to be righteous men, to be noblemen. 14:57 Well, then I'll interject because you've struck exactly, 15:01 you know, I've got an 18-year-old son. 15:02 So I think less about myself, I'm a lost closet. 15:05 Yeah. 15:07 But, you know, with him and he has even told me 15:10 and I know this is true, he was in public school 15:12 for most of his education. 15:14 I've heard the girl said, 15:15 "You are the promiscuous with the girls 15:20 or you're a gay." 15:21 Yeah. 15:23 It's just a flip-flop and you sort of get it. 15:24 You know, the talking women and all the rest 15:26 that's the macho of your manhood, 15:27 the other side is if not gay, capital G, it's gay. 15:32 Right. 15:34 And I'm sorry we've run out of time. 15:36 In our first half so please, viewers, stay with us, 15:38 we'll be back at this crucial time 15:41 on Manly Men with our guest Dr. Mansfield. |
Revised 2017-02-05