Welcome, to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a regular program,
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and I hope you
are a regular viewer,
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that brings you news, views,
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up-to-date
information, discussion,
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and analysis of
religious liberty developments
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in the U.S. and
around the world.
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My name, I'm ahead of
myself is Lincoln Steed,
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editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest on the
program Dr. Stephen Mansfield,
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author, lecturer,
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and the
originator of the Manly Men,
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well, how will I characterize
it, it's a movement.
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It's a movement.
It's a movement. Yeah.
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And I know you've written
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at least one book
on that, probably more.
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Yes.
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Explain what this movement is.
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We all want to be manly men.
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So it's I'm sure it
has a positive resonance.
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Well, you know,
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I was just going
along as an American male,
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and I began to notice how
men are presented in the media.
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I began to notice the
decline of men in our culture.
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Men are declining by almost
every measurable statistic.
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And I began to
have conversations
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with the young
kids I hang out with
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on college
campuses after I lecture,
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I'd rather would
be with the students
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than the faculty.
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And I began to
realize, we're in real crisis
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about manhood in this
society, really, really hurting.
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I celebrate the
achievements of women,
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it's not a tug of war,
but men are in decline.
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So I wrote a book called
Mansfield's Book of Manly Men
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and it just exploded.
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Number of...
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Major media figures
got excited about it
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and it really took off.
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So I felt myself
doing men's gathering,
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it's all around the world.
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And it's very interesting to see
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what's happening with men
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and how they are responding
and the help they need.
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But to put it in brief,
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there is a philosophy or a
view on the college campuses
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that's prevailing.
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And it is that, you
know, women are very suited
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to this digital information
age that we're living in.
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But while we needed
men when we, you know,
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taming the
frontiers, raising the steel,
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and putting down the
railway tracks, and so on.
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Now at a digital
age, they can't function,
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they can't function well.
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And so I call this
The Gorilla Theory of Men
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that we needed them
when we needed their muscle
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but we don't need them now.
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A glorious time, a
stardom in that group
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in her previous separation,
pretty much held that, really.
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Yeah. Yeah. That's
right. That's right.
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Well, and so now men
are sitting in their cages,
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eating their bananas,
scratching their heads,
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and trying to figure out,
you know, what's going on.
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But the people who
are really suffering
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from this loss of
manhood are the boys.
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The statistics on
boys are just devastating.
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And so I'm trying to
encourage men to be noblemen,
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and by the way this
recent presidential election
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has really highlighted
some of the issues of manhood.
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And, you know, we've
got two former president
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and man running for
president, who were, you know,
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raising questions on
what's appropriate for men,
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and what is the old-boy network,
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and what is the
locker room language,
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and what's appropriate for men.
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So I think we're really
at a dramatic crossroads now
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with manhood in America.
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Yeah. I'm agreeing with you.
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And I'm going to
link it to something
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that's been a concern
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or is that a growing
concern for a religious liberty,
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and the whole gay movement.
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And I'm not an
expert, there's many
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physical and psychological
backgrounds to that.
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But by my observation,
the women's led movement,
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emasculated male prerogatives
I think in many ways.
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And that's continued.
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And then I even think
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and this is
where I'm leading it.
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I think this a the
very least a lifestyle
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but perhaps even
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a chemical element to this
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in the western world in the U.S.
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where the food is
doped to the limit.
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I think there is an
emasculation going on.
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And so you can only deal
through these programs with,
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you know, behavior
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and reinstating
a value in someone.
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But I think the...
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My real point is that
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I think the deck
that's stacked against males
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in this new era,
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that they are establishing,
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sort of this new idea,
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global us because it's trying
to create a unisex culture.
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It's trying to diminish the fact
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that there is any difference
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either
genetically or behaviorally.
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Yeah.
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And so you in a way
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you're backing
against the social trend.
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Even though, it's very biblical.
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No. There is no
question. No question about it.
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I do run on a
different idea by you
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because I am of
the view that women
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and asserting their
rights and their liberties
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didn't take anything from men
that men had abandoned already.
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I'm not saying,
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I'm with every aspect
of the feminist movement,
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of course,
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as a biblical Christian,
that wouldn't be the case.
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But the decline of manhood
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it was occurring as
early as 1800s or late 1800s.
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In fact, you
know, Theodore Roosevelt
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was the product
of renewal of manhood
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and a kind of a men's moment
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that was happening at
the time he was at Harvard.
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And so that
decline is continued,
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and I think some people
want to point at the 1970s
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and say boom that's
the moment happened,
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manhood was perfect before.
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It's the industrial revolution
proved about anything,
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the change in and the way
incomes were in and, you know,
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in England, in early days,
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the little kids
seven or eight years old,
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they're working,
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the mother is
working, the father is working,
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he is not really
the bread winner.
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Right.
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And then in the U.S.
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when it became an absolute
necessity for two incomes,
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then, yes, I
think the role of men
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while it might
be still important,
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it's not the
old one, it's not...
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Well, and there is also
a Colombia female scholar
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who wrote a book called
the Feminization of America
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and she makes the case
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that it really was the raise
of the theological liberalism
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in the late 1800s
that unmanned Christianity.
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And therefore,
then that continued
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to have influence on society.
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So, you know, we
can debate the sources,
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and I think it is
a fascinating debate,
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and I think it's
an important debate.
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But yeah, what we do about it?
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The reality is that
the most men are in doubt,
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in question, and in confusion
about their role models.
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The society wants to say,
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"Well, let's not have
John Wayne type role models,"
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'cause that produce rapists
and abusers and what have you.
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And I've been, of
course, nobody is trying
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to turn everybody into
above us but at the same time,
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I do think we needed
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restoration of
righteous nobleman.
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I think that the
biblical Christianity
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produces not a domineering,
bigoted kind of manhood
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but a noble, I
call it great manhood
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'cause we
actually do it great man
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with the two words run
together is kind of our logo.
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But great manhood is Christ
like, Godly, servant oriented,
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taking responsibility,
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building a righteous
generation out of the children,
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kind of manhood.
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And I think it's
something we desperately need.
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Do you connect any
of it back to theology?
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Sure.
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You know, there
was clearly a moment,
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I don't know
when it began but 10,
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no, no, more than
10, 20, 30 years ago
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to present God as female.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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And I'm positive
God's nor male nor female
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but the Bible clearly stated
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the gender roles as
sort of modeling for us
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and men and women
who tried to follow it.
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But he had to
suddenly radically shift that.
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That had do have cut men
loose from biblical model.
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Well, you know,
what's you often to have
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is that dynamic attention
that Hegel talked about,
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you know, you got
thesis, synthesis, antithesis.
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What happens is that
the feminist movement
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was often reacting to extremes
that men had brought along.
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For example, we all know that
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since men and women
have made the image of God,
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the God has both feminine
and the masculine in him
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in some way that's grandeur
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then we can even
begin to understand.
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So for centuries, God had
been portrayed as all male
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and femininity is secondary
and somehow diminished.
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Well, so when the
feminist movement began,
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they reversed the order
and said, "God is female,"
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and it was an overreaction
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to what had been an
over statement to begin with.
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Yeah. And so I
lay both that sides.
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So let's just be
biblical, there is no question,
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God is both male and female
as we humans understand it.
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And when we get to have
Him, we're going to say,
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"Yeah, there it is, beautifully
portrayed both of them."
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Women are made the image of God,
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men are made the image of God
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and, of course,
the feminist movement
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and it says that's wrong
in presenting her as a female,
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as the men were
presenting him as male
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without any with female
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because it's sort of
like an afterthought.
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I read a lot of stuff on humans,
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one of their attributes is
try to see patterns in life.
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Yes.
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And so I tried to
see patterns, I mean,
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not because I read the article.
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And I can remember as a
kid very young in Australia
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going to Hyde
Park which was modeled
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after Hyde Park in London
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where you, on a Sunday,
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you can take
your literal soapbox
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and stand up and
spat against church,
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government, king,
queen, or whatever.
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And they wouldn't touch
you, you could say anything,
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communism was spread.
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And I used to listen a lot of it
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and then I heard a lot of
these types going on and on
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about against the patristic
society and all of those.
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And it was socialism,
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it was realistic
sort of anarchism,
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and I believe that
feminism and the gay movement
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is bigger than
those two movements alone.
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That's why I tried to connect it
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to the industrial society,
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I think are
rethinking of the whole society
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from a radical,
seculars view point,
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there is a
master plan that really,
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if I'd connect it with anything,
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it's anarchism.
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And most people think anarchism
is just lawlessness, it's not.
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It was without the
king, it's the rule of you,
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you are a God in your own ride.
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Right. Right.
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And I think it's a place still
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through some of these movements.
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Well, that has not
served cause of men very well.
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I've written a little
booklet to go with my book
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Mansfield's Book of Manly Men
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and it's called
Building Your Band of Brothers.
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And what I contend is
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that the average
man walks alone today.
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He doesn't have
significant men in his life.
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You know, we get busy
with jobs, and children,
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and houses, and
careers, and what have you.
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And at some point, we
find ourselves walking alone.
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I say that the one
of the arts of manhood
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is to build a band
of brothers around you.
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Men who love you
but are afraid of you
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will say what needs to be said.
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And I urge them to have
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as their goal of free fire zone,
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which means
that men are together
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and they can say
anything to each other
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that helps them to be better.
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The fact is we have that
naturally when we were kids.
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We had it
naturally in high school
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or in our sports teams.
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We lose it as we get older.
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So the radical anarchism,
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which makes
everyman his own island,
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keeps us from
benefiting each other.
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Men need masculine community,
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as the same way women
need feminine community.
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Yes, my wife has a
snipe at me now and then,
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"Oh, you don't
have a lot of friends."
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Well, I'm friendly to
people and I have a few
00:10:41.44\00:10:45.04
but I thought of
that since she said that.
00:10:45.07\00:10:47.61
When we have
friends outside work,
00:10:47.64\00:10:49.54
that people
that she were friends
00:10:49.58\00:10:50.91
and I seen sort of come along.
00:10:50.95\00:10:52.28
And I've seen other people,
I know it's not that uncommon.
00:10:52.31\00:10:53.98
No. Yes. You're right.
00:10:54.02\00:10:55.58
You're not
gathering your buddies around
00:10:55.62\00:10:57.92
like they used to
unless you're real macho guy
00:10:57.95\00:11:00.42
that goes to the
nightclub or whatever regularly
00:11:00.46\00:11:03.63
and he's left the family
line, and that's not right.
00:11:03.66\00:11:05.73
Well, and so the question is
00:11:05.76\00:11:07.73
what is that
men have dropped off
00:11:07.76\00:11:09.10
and keeps them from having
them that kind of community.
00:11:09.13\00:11:10.63
I think men
need to have hobbies,
00:11:10.67\00:11:12.00
they need to have sports,
00:11:12.03\00:11:13.37
they need to have things they do
00:11:13.40\00:11:14.74
at every age, but
it's a very serious issue.
00:11:14.77\00:11:18.67
I mean... Where's my wife?
00:11:18.71\00:11:20.64
She doesn't quite
buy that obviously.
00:11:20.68\00:11:23.04
Obviously, it's correct.
00:11:23.08\00:11:24.41
It's absolute where we
have new ways to teach boys
00:11:24.45\00:11:26.38
how to do it as well.
00:11:26.41\00:11:27.75
In England, one of the
most rising areas of concern
00:11:27.78\00:11:32.95
is that men over 50
are committing suicide
00:11:32.99\00:11:34.62
in huge numbers.
00:11:34.66\00:11:35.99
When we do the post-mortem,
00:11:36.02\00:11:37.36
psychologically as
well as physically,
00:11:37.39\00:11:39.09
we find out that
it was loneliness.
00:11:39.13\00:11:41.20
I slated alone, you
know, and then, of course,
00:11:41.23\00:11:44.20
you add to this to
the decline of the family,
00:11:44.23\00:11:45.90
most of the young
men aren't fathered.
00:11:45.93\00:11:48.20
So we desperately need for men
to begin to pull that together.
00:11:48.24\00:11:52.64
I have talked to
professional men all the time,
00:11:52.67\00:11:54.11
I'm talking about
successful men like yourself.
00:11:54.14\00:11:56.61
And many times, they
can't name a best friend
00:11:56.64\00:11:59.58
one of the
tell-all questions is,
00:11:59.61\00:12:01.95
who would you call to
get yourself outside of jail
00:12:01.98\00:12:04.39
at 3:00 in the morning
if you are out of the town.
00:12:04.42\00:12:06.42
Most men can't name that person.
00:12:06.45\00:12:07.79
They don't have a best
friend, they don't have anybody
00:12:07.82\00:12:09.22
speaking other than wife
00:12:09.26\00:12:10.59
and quick little
humorous illustration.
00:12:10.63\00:12:12.09
Somebody handed me a
photograph not too long ago
00:12:12.13\00:12:14.73
of a picture taken at a party,
00:12:14.76\00:12:16.10
and I looked at the
picture said, "Who is that?"
00:12:16.13\00:12:18.10
And they said it's you
and what did happened was,
00:12:18.13\00:12:21.14
they just happened to
have caught me at a moment,
00:12:21.17\00:12:23.17
you know, we all have those
ugly moments in photographs.
00:12:23.20\00:12:25.37
And I won't go into the details
00:12:25.41\00:12:26.78
but I got to think looking
at that picture and thinking,
00:12:26.81\00:12:28.74
"If I can look like
that and don't know it,
00:12:28.78\00:12:31.75
what else can't I
see about myself?"
00:12:31.78\00:12:33.82
Because we all...
00:12:33.85\00:12:35.18
We can't see
ourselves accurately alone.
00:12:35.22\00:12:37.59
So if men are going to
become noble and achieve
00:12:37.62\00:12:40.92
and be with their family
what they are meant to be,
00:12:40.96\00:12:42.76
they are going to have a
band of brothers around them
00:12:42.79\00:12:44.86
and most men walk
alone into their destruction
00:12:44.89\00:12:47.66
and it's a real trend.
00:12:47.70\00:12:50.00
Yeah.
00:12:50.03\00:12:51.37
I think it's a
very healthy moment
00:12:51.40\00:12:53.40
that you're trying to
start and I know there's others.
00:12:53.44\00:12:57.37
Oh, yeah.
00:12:57.41\00:12:58.74
Privately we would talk
about who that was a figure
00:12:58.77\00:13:02.11
few decades ago he used to have
00:13:02.14\00:13:03.55
these retreats for
men where they would...
00:13:03.58\00:13:05.31
He is one of my... Sit
around the fire at night.
00:13:05.35\00:13:07.58
Yeah, he's a hero
of mine, John Eldredge.
00:13:07.62\00:13:10.02
And he wrote a book
called Wild at Heart
00:13:10.05\00:13:11.45
and he was talking to men
00:13:11.49\00:13:12.82
about the
uniqueness of their hearts
00:13:12.85\00:13:14.19
as opposed to
women and what that meant
00:13:14.22\00:13:15.82
and how they need to
take responsibilities
00:13:15.86\00:13:17.19
for the
"Wildness in their hearts"
00:13:17.23\00:13:18.56
and he defines that biblically.
00:13:18.59\00:13:20.10
But I see that as a precursor
to what I'm doing absolutely.
00:13:20.13\00:13:24.60
But you just wouldn't believe
the response to this, you know,
00:13:24.63\00:13:29.14
the first major media
figure to pick up this book
00:13:29.17\00:13:31.97
was Glenn Back.
00:13:32.01\00:13:33.34
And by the next
Monday morning on his show,
00:13:33.38\00:13:35.21
he was saying this
book can change America,
00:13:35.24\00:13:36.64
I'm not bragging about the book,
00:13:36.68\00:13:38.01
I'm saying that's
how exciting it was.
00:13:38.05\00:13:39.38
I went to the Philippines
00:13:39.41\00:13:40.75
and I did five
gigantic men's gatherings
00:13:40.78\00:13:44.85
thousands and thousands of men.
00:13:44.89\00:13:46.39
And as many were turned away
00:13:46.42\00:13:47.79
because there's
something who wasn't in the room
00:13:47.82\00:13:49.16
and now we are looking
at doing at stadium of that.
00:13:49.19\00:13:51.79
It's a desperate issue
00:13:51.83\00:13:53.19
this election season has
only heightened those issues.
00:13:53.23\00:13:55.63
And men are feeling
it, men are feeling,
00:13:55.66\00:13:57.80
they are feeling the decline,
they are feeling the loss,
00:13:57.83\00:13:59.70
and a horrible
trends like men's health
00:13:59.73\00:14:02.20
and men's suicide
rates are just confirming...
00:14:02.24\00:14:05.27
How do you avoid what, you know,
00:14:05.31\00:14:07.01
you're getting
paired up with me.
00:14:07.04\00:14:08.64
And I thought
it's not the first time
00:14:08.68\00:14:10.01
I saw that the legacy
when my wife challenged me.
00:14:10.05\00:14:12.41
I've sort of self-analyzed
00:14:12.45\00:14:14.02
and I've read it
say very recently
00:14:14.05\00:14:15.95
that yes, I
think it's three years
00:14:15.98\00:14:18.35
is a very high number of
the close there is no male.
00:14:18.39\00:14:22.22
Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:22.26\00:14:24.33
But, you know, in today's world,
00:14:24.36\00:14:26.83
if you're, unless
you're real metro sexual,
00:14:26.86\00:14:30.67
it seems to me just to
uncritically be familiar
00:14:30.70\00:14:35.50
on a personal
level of too many males,
00:14:35.54\00:14:39.24
you sort of know
what's going to happen.
00:14:39.27\00:14:40.61
Yeah. Yeah. And you avoid that.
00:14:40.64\00:14:42.84
Well, I mean, I'm urging
a kind of biblical manhood.
00:14:42.88\00:14:46.92
So there are
boundaries put in place,
00:14:46.95\00:14:48.78
and there are, you know,
we're not just getting together
00:14:48.82\00:14:51.32
to get drunk or to go
hit up the girls or whatever,
00:14:51.35\00:14:53.56
we're getting together to be
righteous men, to be noblemen.
00:14:53.59\00:14:57.09
Well, then I'll interject
because you've struck exactly,
00:14:57.13\00:15:01.06
you know, I've got
an 18-year-old son.
00:15:01.10\00:15:02.43
So I think less about
myself, I'm a lost closet.
00:15:02.46\00:15:05.70
Yeah.
00:15:05.73\00:15:07.07
But, you know, with
him and he has even told me
00:15:07.10\00:15:10.71
and I know this is
true, he was in public school
00:15:10.74\00:15:12.47
for most of his education.
00:15:12.51\00:15:14.24
I've heard the girl said,
00:15:14.28\00:15:15.74
"You are the
promiscuous with the girls
00:15:15.78\00:15:20.25
or you're a gay."
00:15:20.28\00:15:21.62
Yeah.
00:15:21.65\00:15:22.98
It's just a flip-flop
and you sort of get it.
00:15:23.02\00:15:24.35
You know, the talking
women and all the rest
00:15:24.39\00:15:25.99
that's the
macho of your manhood,
00:15:26.02\00:15:27.89
the other side is if not
gay, capital G, it's gay.
00:15:27.92\00:15:32.76
Right.
00:15:32.79\00:15:34.53
And I'm sorry
we've run out of time.
00:15:34.56\00:15:36.16
In our first half so
please, viewers, stay with us,
00:15:36.20\00:15:38.30
we'll be back at
this crucial time
00:15:38.33\00:15:41.30
on Manly Men with
our guest Dr. Mansfield.
00:15:41.34\00:15:45.57