Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000343B
|
00:05 Welcome back to Liberty Insider with guest
00:07 Dr. Stephen Mansfield. 00:09 We have been discussing at some lengths what the 00:12 anniversary, coming up now, we are recording it, 00:16 but for 2017, it's the "500th Anniversary of the Reformation" 00:21 which for like many people, it's 10,000 years ago. 00:24 - Sure. -But it is relevant today isn't it? 00:27 - Yes, there's no question about it. -So where are we going 00:29 with this? and we have already discussed some of the 00:31 ramifications, but what else tickles your consciousness 00:35 on "Reformation Remembrance"? 00:37 - Well, I think we need to understand that it's the 00:40 foundation of so much, and every time someone who is even 00:43 secular in American society search their individual 00:46 autonomy and their individual rights, they have the 00:49 Reformation to thank for that. Every time they are not required 00:54 to subscribe to a state church, they have the reformation 00:57 to thank for that. Every time they celebrate the separation 01:00 of church and state, every time they celebrate individual 01:03 liberties, civil liberties, they have the reformation to 01:06 thank for that. We often don't know enough history 01:09 to know the bondage we were in and I am not necessarily 01:13 speaking of the Roman Catholic Church, but even medieval 01:15 society was just stunning. And one thing I also want to 01:20 make sure that we bring up is the increase of learning. 01:22 You know the average person living in the middle ages 01:25 in their entire lifetime never needed to know more information 01:28 that is in one Sunday edition of The New York Times Today. 01:31 But you had the Gutenberg Printing Press 1453, 01:35 then you have of course the emphasis on learning, 01:37 and individual learning. 01:39 - Yes, because most people didn't read. -They were illiterate 01:42 and of course the Bible was kept from them. 01:44 So Protestants...absolute revolution in education 01:49 and led directly to the frontier schools that we celebrate 01:52 so much. "Little House on The Prairie" kinds of things 01:54 in the U.S., universities, ect. 01:56 So people walking around with degrees, people who can read, 02:00 people who enjoy books, knowledge, ideas, 02:02 they have the reformation to thank for the fact that 02:04 we are living in a world where that is just profuse. -Right! 02:06 Absolutely, there was a technological element 02:10 as the Bible says... Daniel... I think it is. 02:12 Learning, knowledge shall be increased, men run to and fro. 02:15 Right! Right! -That clearly was a part but the reformation 02:19 itself is really where I think, where all the liberal leanings 02:23 of western society come from. 02:25 - Well...And the secularists claim a lot of it but 02:30 where they get it from, I don't think suffer from the 02:33 reformation and the French Revolution, which was clearly a 02:36 a shot in the arm for secularism but so much later. 02:39 - Right. Right. There's no question about it. 02:41 I will tell you another thing that is interesting 02:43 about the reformation too is that it brought two things. 02:46 One was an optimistic view of history, 02:48 you had a largely negative view of history 02:50 throughout the middle ages. Part of the was plagues 02:53 and short life...- And, you know blame them for it. 02:56 Life is pretty prudish. - We also forget that in the 02:58 middle ages, the average life span was 30 years. 03:01 Thirty years, and so an optimistic view of history 03:05 now some people call this post millennialism, 03:07 but basically an optimistic view of history 03:08 that is in the hands of God. The other thing too, is 03:11 the use of technology. Not only Gutenberg's 03:13 Printing Press but clipper ships and other innovations 03:16 that were used to advance the gospel. 03:18 Of course the reformers would have seen this as a the 03:20 providence of God giving us technology to accomplish 03:23 what God...what our doctrine teaches. 03:25 - An argument is being made that the whole British Empire 03:27 was the product of coal. - Yeah! Yeah! 03:30 Right! -And even today, most of the U.S. bases are where 03:33 the old coal places were for... - Right! -the U.S. Navy. 03:37 - Whereas there would have been suspicion... 03:39 In the middle ages there would have been suspicion 03:41 of new technologies. There was the operative, reformation 03:45 that brought optimism. So, so much of what we enjoy... 03:47 Though I admit it, much of it is secularized, so I am hoping 03:51 that we use that hook of individual liberties 03:54 of much of what we enjoy similarly today 03:55 to educate people about the reformation. 03:58 But even secularization, some- thing just hit me is you know the 04:00 Protestant Reformation created a dignity for the flesh. 04:06 - Yes! -Roman Catholicism saw the flesh as evil and the 04:10 spiritual...and the other realm is the only reality. 04:13 So Protestantism was here and now and this even the 04:16 the backhanded criticism or endorsement of Scandinavian 04:24 countries, Lutheran instead of stodgy, business as usual thing. 04:28 But it was real world, at the very ordered and the progress 04:35 oriented throughout because man now had his destiny, 04:37 it wasn't now the priest telling him what to do 04:40 or divine things that you knew nothing about, 04:43 you could control. -No, there's no question, 04:45 no question about it. -I think yeah, you are right, 04:47 from the reformation. 04:48 - Yeah, there is so much we enjoy. For example, 04:52 music, people often miss the fact that the reformation was 04:55 really born and gave birth to I should guess I should say. 05:00 Tremendous music, congregational singing, individual singing, 05:04 Luther encouraged husbands to sing to their wives, 05:06 I mean, everybody was enjoying music today especially 05:10 this I-Tunes the way that we have now. 05:12 This is a direct descendant of the thinking of the reformation. 05:15 - Ah, well, I'm mulling it over, I love music, of course 05:19 how I exalt the church music. 05:22 At least in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic 05:26 sort of nurtured that in a formal way but yeah, 05:30 I guess you are right, it became more individual and 05:32 intimate music rather than the...- Yea, Luther. 05:36 grand church... Sure the reformation removed the screens 05:39 between the altar and the people. In many cases dissolved 05:42 the professional choirs of singers. 05:44 You know the people were considered to unclean to 05:46 actually sing to God, so once the reformation turned every man 05:49 into a priesthood of believers, well now the congregational 05:52 singing kicked in and in many Protestant churches today 05:55 you don't have professional choirs, you have the people 05:57 singing congregationally. 05:58 Well that's from the reformation, that was not 06:01 going on before. - Interesting take. 06:02 - Now I am positive...well there's going to be a lot of 06:06 books written and you might write one of them as we 06:08 re-examine the reformation but I am quite positive that 06:12 it had fire reaching ramifications for every aspect 06:17 of society and I will do a big jump on you just because 06:20 to show an opinion. -Sure. - It's been said many times 06:22 that Islam needs a reformation like Christianity had that it 06:27 hasn't had one, and I think at least from the sociological 06:30 point of view with Islamic countries, that's very true. 06:34 - Yes. _Saudi Arabia, it's medieval. -Yea! 06:37 - Yea! -In a literal sense. -Yep! - You probably didn't see it 06:40 when you were there recently I know, but I mean the video 06:44 shots you can see is of cutting people's heads off 06:46 in the Public Square, that is the middle ages. -yeah! 06:48 There are tremendous parallels for? rate issues prior to 06:53 the reformation was illiteracy, and of course 06:55 Biblical illiteracy because the scriptures weren't 06:57 translated into the language of the people. 06:59 Well there's a direct parallel to Islam today, 07:01 about 70% of Muslim's worldwide are illiterate and you cannot 07:05 read the Koran as a authorative theological statement 07:10 unless you are reading it in classical Arabic, 07:11 which only 10% of Muslims can read. 07:13 - So it's almost like in terms of that, just that literary 07:15 and learning and literacy level, it's a direct parallel 07:18 to pre-reformation days and so Islam is in need of that 07:21 and confidentially many of the religious leaders of Islam 07:25 will say as much, will say there is need for reformation. 07:28 - Well, I better not put words into the leaders mouth but 07:33 General is it Mossi, what's the general in agent? 07:40 It's their leader at the moment. 07:43 - Mossi. -Mossi, I just hesitated for a minute, 07:46 I thought that was the name of his predecessor, Di Pose. 07:48 But Mossi actually challenged the religious leaders 07:53 of Islam and Egypt pretty much for reformation. 07:56 - Right. Of course that's when he got Sadat killed. 07:59 - Well I know, I was about to say a very dangerous leader. 08:01 I told an Egyptian that I was talking to recently 08:04 that that was bold, he is almost asking to be executed. 08:07 - Yeah. As many of the Protestant Reformers were. 08:11 - Right. -Jan Hussanant... They went asking for huge things 08:14 but at the time, they were seen so unacceptable. 08:16 - Right. Right. - So we have much to thank 08:20 even the more abhorrent... and I count John Calvin as 08:24 one of the abhorrent leaders of the Protestant Reformation. 08:27 He wasn't wrong in everything, but you know, 08:29 wasn't it Civitas that he presided over? 08:32 execution and so on. He fell into some of the same 08:36 era's that he was objecting to. 08:38 - Sure. -But they were leading a purification religiously 08:42 and socially of the whole existing order. 08:45 It was very repressive. 08:47 - Well again, at a secular level. perhaps, where all the children 08:50 of John Calvin, despite his accesses, he was a very 08:54 successful. Virtually the founder of America. 08:56 In a doctrinal sense. Secular Calvinism is much 09:00 of what we enjoy, and I often find it humorous that the most 09:03 secular American will claim rights, they came 09:06 straight from the pages of John Calvin's writings, 09:09 and so, anyway, it's good to know your heritage. 09:11 - So do you think, back to the separation of church and state 09:16 and the role of religion as we were discussing in another 09:18 program for the present. 09:20 But do think America is likely to continue to see itself 09:24 as the inheritors of the Protestant Heritage? 09:28 Or do we become so diffused as well as ethically 09:34 and religiously that it is just sort of one element 09:37 in the wake? 09:39 - I don't think most Americans see themselves as the 09:41 inheritors' of American Protestant Christian. 09:42 - I don't think now... - And I don't see that coming 09:44 back around. - So what's the... 09:46 is there a risk in that loss of identity? 09:49 - There's a great risk, there's a great risk. 09:51 I think we move away from certain freedoms... 09:52 Part of the problem today is that Americans un-critically 09:55 absorb ideas from other religions and other cultures 09:58 without recognizing their implications. 10:00 You can be cool and absorb certain parts of Hinduism, 10:04 but take a good look at what Hinduism has produced 10:07 at a societal level. 10:08 Even the Indians are opposing it as a governmental philosophy. 10:13 You can be cool and draw certain elements from Buddhism, 10:17 you know Allah, boomer spirituality. 10:19 But the reality is you don't want to live in a 10:21 thoroughly Buddhist society. Even Buddhist leaders say 10:25 they don't have a good political philosophy. 10:26 So Americans are un-critical, as I said in another one 10:31 of our programs, they aren't concerned about what is true, 10:34 they are concerned about what works. 10:36 And that leads them into trouble, that's kind of the 10:37 Oprah Winfrey, the Oprahfication of religion and that's what's 10:40 going on in America. 10:42 - I am a bit of a contrary. Yes, I agree with you, 10:43 but at the same time, that's the strength of America 10:48 the people and the system cannot so readily 10:51 embrace a new idea. 10:52 I am from Australia as I've said a number of times before, 10:56 Australia is a pretty progressive country, 10:58 but it has a lot more of what you would see in England 11:00 or the old world of... We've done it this way before, 11:03 we're not going to change. - Right! 11:04 We're...You know John F. Kennedy says man in the moon, 11:08 within 10- 20 years, we are going to do it, and we did it. 11:14 - Yeah! -I mean that's possibility thinking 11:15 on a grand scale. That's a good thing but the downside, 11:19 you are right, un-critically often adopt new things. 11:22 - Well we Americans tend to cast off what is good and valuable 11:26 about their society, and take on ideas, again un-critically, 11:29 that just are cool or trendy and they don't really realize 11:32 the implications of it. 11:34 - Yeah. And all I... You know I have been studying 11:36 America myself, sort of... I came, I was an outsider. 11:40 - Sure. -I studied it and some of it is still a mystery. 11:43 But where did that come from? Is is just as simple that 11:46 everybody came from somewhere else, breaking from 11:48 their tradition one way or another and are ready 11:51 for a new beginning. But it seems to be inherited 11:53 doesn't it. -It is, oh I think it is. 11:55 I think the idea that America was new, it was bringing about 11:58 new ideas, or one of our motto's "Novus ordo seclorum", 12:01 you know, "The NewvOrder of the Ages". New ideas, new concepts, 12:03 new ways of doing things. Cast off the old, 12:05 that's built into who we are. 12:07 Generation gaps that you don't experience in other cultures. 12:10 And so, I think we are always trying to try the new, 12:13 but...and I'm not opposed to new ideas, 12:16 I'm not opposed to new technologies, I'm not a... 12:18 But I do think that we sometimes don't value the heritage that 12:23 the ideas passed down, the time-tested ideas 12:26 we cast them off and then we grab for... 12:27 for example, I was talking at a university recently, 12:30 and some of the kids were spouting Hindu ideas and I 12:32 said, well just consider for a moment that played out 12:34 in society. You are going to end up with a caste system. 12:37 You are going to end up with certain ideas that 12:39 you really don't want. You are just taking little light 12:41 because it means something to you in your own little head 12:43 and they began to see it a little bit better 12:45 - And Hinduism and Buddhism can lead you to a certain 12:47 fatalism. - Yeah! yeah! 12:49 Which is exactly the opposite of what these kids wanted. 12:52 Not a fatalism, but a self... - So this American optimism 12:55 as we celebrate the Reformation really needs to be forward 12:58 moving. -Oh, there's no question about it. 13:00 The idea that we are celebrating the 500th Anniversary 13:02 of the Reformation allows us tremendous opportunities 13:04 to bring back the ideas that really were at the foundation 13:07 of our republic. 13:08 2017 marks 500 years since Martin Luther, 13:15 a Roman Catholic Priest, Theologian stood eventually 13:21 before Dia de tormes, not worms. Some illiterates are inclined 13:25 to say lately, stood before the Dia de tormes, 13:28 the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire and assorted clerics 13:33 and rulers and claimed that he would stick to his principles. 13:38 He would proclaim Biblical truth. 13:40 The ramifications of that were incredible. 13:43 The European political scene was changed radically 13:46 following 30 years of mostly religious war, 13:49 and the modern world owes much of its reality, 13:53 much of the most positive things to the reformation. 13:57 The United States is the direct outgrowth, and its freedoms... 14:01 it's principle of freedoms to most particularly owe 14:07 their strength to the reformation. 14:09 This is a time for "Celebration". 14:11 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2017-01-18