Welcome back to
Liberty Insider with guest
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Dr. Stephen Mansfield.
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We have been discussing
at some lengths what the
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anniversary, coming up
now, we are recording it,
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but for 2017, it's the "500th
Anniversary of the Reformation"
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which for like many
people, it's 10,000 years ago.
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- Sure. -But it is
relevant today isn't it?
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- Yes, there's no question
about it. -So where are we going
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with this? and we have
already discussed some of the
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ramifications, but what
else tickles your consciousness
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on "Reformation Remembrance"?
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- Well, I think we need
to understand that it's the
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foundation of so much, and
every time someone who is even
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secular in American
society search their individual
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autonomy and their
individual rights, they have the
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Reformation to thank for that.
Every time they are not required
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to subscribe to a state church,
they have the reformation
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to thank for that. Every time
they celebrate the separation
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of church and state, every
time they celebrate individual
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liberties, civil liberties,
they have the reformation to
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thank for that. We often
don't know enough history
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to know the bondage we
were in and I am not necessarily
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speaking of the Roman Catholic
Church, but even medieval
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society was just stunning.
And one thing I also want to
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make sure that we bring up
is the increase of learning.
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You know the average
person living in the middle ages
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in their entire lifetime never
needed to know more information
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that is in one Sunday edition
of The New York Times Today.
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But you had the
Gutenberg Printing Press 1453,
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then you have of course
the emphasis on learning,
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and individual learning.
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- Yes, because most
people didn't read. -They were
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illiterate and of course
the Bible was kept from them.
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So Protestants...absolute
revolution in education
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and led directly to the frontier
schools that we celebrate
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so much. "Little House on
The Prairie" kinds of things
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in the U.S., universities, ect.
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So people walking around with
degrees, people who can read,
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people who enjoy
books, knowledge, ideas,
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they have the reformation
to thank for the fact that
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we are living in a world where
that is just profuse. -Right!
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Absolutely, there was
a technological element
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as the Bible says...
Daniel... I think it is.
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Learning, knowledge shall be
increased, men run to and fro.
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Right! Right! -That clearly
was a part but the reformation
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itself is really where I think,
where all the liberal leanings
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of western society come from.
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- Well...And the secularists
claim a lot of it but
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where they get it from, I
don't think suffer from the
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reformation and the French
Revolution, which was clearly a
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a shot in the arm for
secularism but so much later.
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- Right. Right.
There's no question about it.
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I will tell you another
thing that is interesting
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about the reformation too
is that it brought two things.
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One was an
optimistic view of history,
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you had a largely
negative view of history
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throughout the middle
ages. Part of the was plagues
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and short life...- And,
you know blame them for it.
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Life is pretty prudish. -
We also forget that in the
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middle ages, the
average life span was 30 years.
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Thirty years, and so an
optimistic view of history
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now some people call
this post millennialism,
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but basically an
optimistic view of history
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that is in the hands of
God. The other thing too, is
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the use of
technology. Not only Gutenberg's
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Printing Press but clipper
ships and other innovations
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that were used to
advance the gospel.
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Of course the reformers
would have seen this as a the
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providence of God giving
us technology to accomplish
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what God...what
our doctrine teaches.
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- An argument is being made
that the whole British Empire
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was the product of
coal. - Yeah! Yeah!
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Right! -And even today,
most of the U.S. bases are where
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the old coal places were
for... - Right! -the U.S. Navy.
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- Whereas there would
have been suspicion...
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In the middle ages there
would have been suspicion
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of new technologies. There
was the operative, reformation
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that brought optimism. So,
so much of what we enjoy...
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Though I admit it, much of it
is secularized, so I am hoping
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that we use that hook
of individual liberties
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of much of what we
enjoy similarly today
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to educate people
about the reformation.
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But even secularization, some-
thing just hit me is you know
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the Protestant Reformation
created a dignity for the flesh.
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- Yes! -Roman Catholicism
saw the flesh as evil and the
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spiritual...and the other
realm is the only reality.
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So Protestantism was
here and now and this even the
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the backhanded criticism
or endorsement of Scandinavian
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countries, Lutheran instead of
stodgy, business as usual thing.
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But it was real world, at the
very ordered and the progress
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oriented throughout
because man now had his destiny,
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it wasn't now the
priest telling him what to do
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or divine things that
you knew nothing about,
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you could control.
-No, there's no question,
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no question about it. -I
think yeah, you are right,
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from the reformation.
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- Yeah, there is so
much we enjoy. For example,
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music, people often miss the
fact that the reformation was
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really born and gave birth
to I should guess I should say.
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Tremendous music, congregational
singing, individual singing,
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Luther encouraged
husbands to sing to their wives,
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I mean, everybody was
enjoying music today especially
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this I-Tunes the
way that we have now.
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This is a direct descendant of
the thinking of the reformation.
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- Ah, well, I'm mulling it
over, I love music, of course
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how I exalt the church music.
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At least in the
Orthodox and Roman Catholic
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sort of nurtured that
in a formal way but yeah,
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I guess you are right, it
became more individual and
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intimate music rather
than the...- Yea, Luther.
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grand church... Sure the
reformation removed the screens
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between the altar and the
people. In many cases dissolved
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the professional
choirs of singers.
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You know the people
were considered to unclean to
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actually sing to God, so once
the reformation turned every man
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into a priesthood of believers,
well now the congregational
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singing kicked in and in
many Protestant churches today
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you don't have professional
choirs, you have the people
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singing congregationally.
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Well that's from the
reformation, that was not
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going on before.
- Interesting take.
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- Now I am positive...well
there's going to be a lot of
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books written and you
might write one of them as we
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re-examine the reformation
but I am quite positive that
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it had fire reaching
ramifications for every aspect
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of society and I will do a
big jump on you just because
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to show an opinion. -Sure.
- It's been said many times
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that Islam needs a reformation
like Christianity had that it
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hasn't had one, and I think
at least from the sociological
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point of view with Islamic
countries, that's very true.
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- Yes. _Saudi
Arabia, it's medieval. -Yea!
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- Yea! -In a literal sense.
-Yep! - You probably didn't see
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it when you were there recently
I know, but I mean the video
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shots you can see is of
cutting people's heads off
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in the Public Square,
that is the middle ages. -yeah!
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There are tremendous parallels
for? rate issues prior to
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the reformation was
illiteracy, and of course
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Biblical illiteracy
because the scriptures weren't
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translated into the
language of the people.
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Well there's a direct
parallel to Islam today,
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about 70% of Muslim's worldwide
are illiterate and you cannot
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read the Koran as a authorative
theological statement
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unless you are reading
it in classical Arabic,
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which only 10%
of Muslims can read.
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- So it's almost like in terms
of that, just that literary
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and learning and literacy
level, it's a direct parallel
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to pre-reformation days
and so Islam is in need of that
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and confidentially many of
the religious leaders of Islam
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will say as much, will say
there is need for reformation.
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- Well, I better not put
words into the leaders mouth but
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General is it Mossi,
what's the general in agent?
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It's their leader at the moment.
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- Mossi. -Mossi, I
just hesitated for a minute,
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I thought that was the name
of his predecessor, Di Pose.
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But Mossi actually
challenged the religious leaders
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of Islam and Egypt
pretty much for reformation.
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- Right. Of course
that's when he got Sadat killed.
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- Well I know, I was about
to say a very dangerous leader.
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I told an Egyptian that
I was talking to recently
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that that was bold, he is
almost asking to be executed.
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- Yeah. As many of the
Protestant Reformers were.
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- Right. -Jan Hussanant...
They went asking for huge things
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but at the time, they
were seen so unacceptable.
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- Right. Right. - So
we have much to thank
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even the more abhorrent...
and I count John Calvin as
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one of the abhorrent leaders
of the Protestant Reformation.
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He wasn't wrong in
everything, but you know,
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wasn't it Civitas
that he presided over?
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execution and so on. He
fell into some of the same
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era's that he was objecting to.
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- Sure. -But they were leading
a purification religiously
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and socially of the
whole existing order.
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It was very repressive.
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- Well again, at a secular
level. perhaps, where all the
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children of John Calvin, despite
his accesses, he was a very
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successful. Virtually
the founder of America.
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In a doctrinal sense.
Secular Calvinism is much
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of what we enjoy, and I often
find it humorous that the most
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secular American will
claim rights, they came
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straight from the pages
of John Calvin's writings,
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and so, anyway, it's
good to know your heritage.
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- So do you think, back to the
separation of church and state
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and the role of religion as
we were discussing in another
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program for the present.
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But do think America is
likely to continue to see itself
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as the inheritors of
the Protestant Heritage?
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Or do we become so
diffused as well as ethically
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and religiously that it
is just sort of one element
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in the wake?
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- I don't think most
Americans see themselves as the
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inheritors' of
American Protestant Christian.
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- I don't think now... -
And I don't see that coming
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back around. - So what's the...
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is there a risk in
that loss of identity?
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- There's a great
risk, there's a great risk.
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I think we move away
from certain freedoms...
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Part of the problem today
is that Americans un-critically
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absorb ideas from other
religions and other cultures
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without
recognizing their implications.
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You can be cool and absorb
certain parts of Hinduism,
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but take a good look at
what Hinduism has produced
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at a societal level.
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Even the Indians are opposing
it as a governmental philosophy.
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You can be cool and draw
certain elements from Buddhism,
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you know Allah,
boomer spirituality.
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But the reality is you
don't want to live in a
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thoroughly Buddhist society.
Even Buddhist leaders say
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they don't have a
good political philosophy.
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So Americans are un-critical,
as I said in another one
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of our programs, they aren't
concerned about what is true,
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they are
concerned about what works.
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And that leads them into
trouble, that's kind of the
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Oprah Winfrey, the Oprahfication
of religion and that's what's
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going on in America.
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- I am a bit of a
contrary. Yes, I agree with you,
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but at the same time,
that's the strength of America
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the people and the
system cannot so readily
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embrace a new idea.
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I am from Australia as I've
said a number of times before,
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Australia is a
pretty progressive country,
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but it has a lot more of
what you would see in England
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or the old world of...
We've done it this way before,
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we're not going
to change. - Right!
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We're...You know John F.
Kennedy says man in the moon,
00:11:04.96\00:11:08.60
within 10- 20 years, we are
going to do it, and we did it.
00:11:08.63\00:11:13.54
- Yeah! -I mean
that's possibility thinking
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on a grand scale. That's a
good thing but the downside,
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you are right, un-critically
often adopt new things.
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- Well we Americans tend to cast
off what is good and valuable
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about their society, and take
on ideas, again un-critically,
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that just are cool or trendy
and they don't really realize
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the implications of it.
00:11:32.89\00:11:34.22
- Yeah. And all I... You
know I have been studying
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America myself, sort
of... I came, I was an outsider.
00:11:36.56\00:11:40.70
- Sure. -I studied it and
some of it is still a mystery.
00:11:40.73\00:11:43.03
But where did that come
from? Is is just as simple that
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everybody came from
somewhere else, breaking from
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their tradition one way
or another and are ready
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for a new beginning.
But it seems to be inherited
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doesn't it. -It
is, oh I think it is.
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I think the idea that America
was new, it was bringing about
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new ideas, or one of our
motto's "Novus ordo seclorum",
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you know, "The NewvOrder of the
Ages". New ideas, new concepts,
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new ways of doing
things. Cast off the old,
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that's built into who we are.
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Generation gaps that you don't
experience in other cultures.
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And so, I think we are
always trying to try the new,
00:12:10.39\00:12:13.76
but...and I'm not
opposed to new ideas,
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I'm not opposed to new
technologies, I'm not a...
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But I do think that we sometimes
don't value the heritage that
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the ideas passed
down, the time-tested ideas
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we cast them off
and then we grab for...
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for example, I was talking
at a university recently,
00:12:27.74\00:12:30.58
and some of the kids were
spouting Hindu ideas and I
00:12:30.61\00:12:32.95
said, well just consider
for a moment that played out
00:12:32.98\00:12:34.88
in society. You are going
to end up with a caste system.
00:12:34.92\00:12:37.05
You are going to end
up with certain ideas that
00:12:37.09\00:12:39.42
you really don't want. You
are just taking little light
00:12:39.45\00:12:41.76
because it means something
to you in your own little head
00:12:41.79\00:12:43.43
and they began to see
it a little bit better
00:12:43.46\00:12:45.69
- And Hinduism and Buddhism
can lead you to a certain
00:12:45.73\00:12:47.70
fatalism. - Yeah! yeah!
00:12:47.73\00:12:49.06
Which is exactly the opposite
of what these kids wanted.
00:12:49.10\00:12:52.17
Not a fatalism, but a self...
- So this American optimism
00:12:52.20\00:12:55.60
as we celebrate the Reformation
really needs to be forward
00:12:55.64\00:12:58.51
moving. -Oh, there's
no question about it.
00:12:58.54\00:13:00.41
The idea that we are celebrating
the 500th Anniversary
00:13:00.44\00:13:02.44
of the Reformation allows
us tremendous opportunities
00:13:02.48\00:13:04.65
to bring back the ideas that
really were at the foundation
00:13:04.68\00:13:07.12
of our republic.
00:13:07.15\00:13:08.48
2017 marks 500
years since Martin Luther,
00:13:08.52\00:13:15.12
a Roman Catholic Priest,
Theologian stood eventually
00:13:15.16\00:13:21.00
before Dia de tormes, not worms.
Some illiterates are inclined
00:13:21.03\00:13:25.87
to say lately, stood
before the Dia de tormes,
00:13:25.90\00:13:28.50
the emperor of the Holy Roman
Empire and assorted clerics
00:13:28.54\00:13:33.34
and rulers and claimed that he
would stick to his principles.
00:13:33.38\00:13:38.25
He would
proclaim Biblical truth.
00:13:38.28\00:13:40.72
The ramifications of
that were incredible.
00:13:40.75\00:13:43.12
The European political
scene was changed radically
00:13:43.15\00:13:46.59
following 30 years
of mostly religious war,
00:13:46.62\00:13:49.42
and the modern world
owes much of its reality,
00:13:49.46\00:13:53.46
much of the most positive
things to the reformation.
00:13:53.50\00:13:57.00
The United States is the direct
outgrowth, and its freedoms...
00:13:57.03\00:14:01.87
it's principle of freedoms
to most particularly owe
00:14:01.90\00:14:07.04
their strength
to the reformation.
00:14:07.08\00:14:09.14
This is a time
for "Celebration".
00:14:09.18\00:14:11.41
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:14:11.45\00:14:16.82