Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000342B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break in discussion with my guest, 00:10 we were projecting 00:14 and I know a lot of people including Yogi Berra says, 00:18 it's always hard to project especially about the future 00:20 or something to that effect. 00:21 But we have to... 00:23 Sure. 00:24 We're forward thinking people. Sure. 00:25 So, you know, 00:27 where does religion in the world 00:28 but in particular in the United States go 00:29 because you and I agreed, 00:31 I think most of our audience would agree 00:32 that it's a necessary part of the human psyche 00:35 and there is a divine, 00:37 you can't have a society that keeps religion so private 00:41 that it doesn't have any part of group activity, 00:45 but where does it go? 00:46 I think globally, 00:48 religion in returning to the traditional categories, 00:51 the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia, 00:53 you know, Petro-Islam 00:56 throughout the Middle East etcetera. 00:57 In the United States I think you're moving towards 00:59 the greater customization of faith. 01:02 Example, Hillary Clinton says 01:03 that she's a social justice Methodist 01:05 but if you hear her describe Methodism, 01:06 it's not anything that 01:08 John Wesley would have described, 01:09 would have understood. 01:11 He would have understood 01:12 something about caring for the poor, 01:13 you know, etcetera. 01:15 But Mrs. Clinton can do to an entire talk 01:16 on her social gospel Methodist and never mention Jesus, 01:20 never mention salvation. 01:21 My point is not to pick on her. 01:23 That's the engine driving those wheels. 01:24 Exactly, exactly. 01:25 My point is that 01:27 especially with the millennial on the rise, 01:28 they curate religions, they do cafeteria faith, 01:30 they take whatever, 01:32 they really don't care about that much what's true, 01:33 they care about what works for them. 01:35 So they're likely in nine or ten different pieces of faith. 01:38 Well, so as a result, 01:39 you have greater customization in the US 01:41 and yet no less religiosity, no or less religious fervor. 01:45 And then of course, 01:46 globally you have this written traditional religions 01:48 so I think it's a more complicated world 01:51 and certainly in terms of American politics, 01:53 it means we got to ask a lot of questions 01:54 because I think we will have millennials running who say, 01:57 I'm spiritual but not religious, 02:00 and then you have to unpack what all that means for them 02:02 because it's gonna influence what they do in office. 02:03 Let me throw you a question, 02:04 you might not gotta like this but, you know, 02:06 I lived most of my life in the US 02:08 but I came from Australia 02:09 and always sort of have another look. 02:11 I know that a lot of the rest of the world 02:13 sees American religion as sort of pop psychology 02:19 or prosperity gospel, is sort of, 02:22 I know, it's not religious 02:23 but the Zig Ziglar type religion which... 02:26 I was at a conference in Germany 02:29 once where Zig Ziglar type 02:32 motivational speaker was brought over from America 02:34 and the Germans were offended to the extreme, walked out, 02:39 you know, they said, "Do you think we're children?" 02:40 Yeah. 02:41 That is not the sort of religion 02:43 of the rest of the west which is very cynical. 02:45 Right. 02:47 You know, but that's where it's going, 02:48 they make churches where people are told 02:51 how wonderful they are 02:52 and everything good can come to you 02:54 as you follow the Lord. 02:56 Well, that's not the biblical approach. 02:58 In fact Jesus said, you know, 02:59 in the world you'll have trouble, it's a promise. 03:01 Right, right. 03:03 And I think you are putting everything on a good thing, 03:05 that some of what passes for 03:08 American religion is sort of a hot house situation 03:10 where it only who would grow in that context, 03:12 and I actually encourage some of these guys to get overseas 03:15 because if you are sitting there 03:16 and looking at refugees in Africa, 03:18 if you are sitting there looking there at Germans 03:20 who are enduring what they're enduring now, 03:24 your thinking changes a bit, 03:26 you grab different truths out of scripture, 03:28 you become more fully orbed. 03:29 So the scripture in some broad way 03:33 promise blessing to those who are faithful, 03:34 I mean... 03:36 Yeah, of course. Of course it does. 03:37 And so in that sense there is some prosperity 03:39 aspect to the covenants and what have you, 03:41 but to make it the center of the gospel is heresy, 03:44 and it's certainly isn't going to work 03:45 in other parts of the world. 03:47 I'm actually setting you for a full... 03:48 Oh, that's fine, go ahead. 03:49 Go ahead, I'm off for it. 03:51 Now... 03:52 Yeah, this is how we have discussion. 03:53 2008 is a strong memory with me 03:58 and I think most of our society 03:59 and it's not just the strong possibility, 04:02 it's cyclical certainty that 04:05 there will be as great perhaps greater financial collapse 04:09 certainly in our lifetime. 04:11 When that comes, 04:12 what will happen to this form of religious expression 04:17 which is sort of a positive, 04:19 we could do everything, God is... 04:21 As George Bush said, you know, 04:22 God has blessed America 04:24 and he couldn't bless more deserving people. 04:26 But when he appears not to be blessing America, 04:29 we now suddenly not deserving, where will this go? 04:32 Yeah, I think another financial collapse will again 04:36 challenge this kind of thinking. 04:38 I mean, we've actually seen a decline in adherence 04:41 since 2008 because it's not based, 04:45 first of all in reality 04:46 and second of all it's not based on scripture. 04:48 It's an extreme. 04:49 I mean, as we just said, 04:51 is there an element of truth in it. 04:52 Yes, the generous man prospers, we're told in scripture, 04:55 but to believe that all of us ought to be driving, you know, 04:58 in Bentley's and having our private jets 05:00 and that's the heart of the gospel is just silly. 05:03 And it works for those who have gigantic mailing lists 05:05 and big media ministries. 05:07 The average person just wants to make sure 05:08 his needs are met so he can get on with living for God 05:10 and that's where the emphasis ought to be, 05:11 and I think most Christians in the world 05:13 would accept that level. 05:14 And of course, so another financial collapse, 05:16 well, I think will challenge this theology even further. 05:19 Like yeah, I can answer my own question. 05:20 I hope and think 05:23 that many people faced 05:25 with a huge stress in their lives 05:27 and the national conversation will be full spec to God 05:31 in a way that they have never been before 05:34 and true spirituality will rise, 05:36 but I also suspect and it's the pattern of history 05:40 that it will lead to a sort of a religious 05:42 demagoguery in the end, 05:44 so the idea that we need the NASA 05:46 to shape a whole country up by a centralized edict 05:49 and then God will bless us again 05:51 and now as the righteous nation 05:53 we can move ahead, is that danger. 05:55 Oh, there's absolutely no danger 05:56 and I think we've seen that in history before. 05:58 Yes. 05:59 That was behind Naziism, 06:01 that has been behind other sort of faith based insurgencies, 06:03 faith based tyrannies. 06:06 So I think it's a great concern 06:08 and that's why that we've got to watch 06:09 our theology more closely 06:11 both as the church and in politics. 06:12 Absolutely. 06:13 Yeah, you and I agree way more than I ever expected. 06:19 Just to reiterate a public discussion. 06:21 You know our religious liberty department 06:24 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church 06:25 really got its origins in the late 1800s 06:29 and around 1888 was when it really hit its stride, 06:33 because there was a national Sunday law in the US 06:36 that was nothing to do with... 06:37 Well, I should I say nothing to do with the blue law, 06:39 but it was way beyond the blue law, 06:41 it was an overt mandate that 06:46 all activity would cease 06:47 and everybody would go to church on a certain day. 06:50 Well, you know, that's against the constitution 06:52 even though back then it was had broad popular support. 06:56 The answer that our then 06:57 religious liberty leaders saw it, 06:59 of course beyond giving testimony 07:01 and rousing people was to go back to his members 07:06 and call for a revival. 07:08 And in my view 07:10 this is the greatest need of society, 07:13 in the US's religious society. 07:15 It's one thing to have political power 07:17 for religious interests 07:19 but we need more spirituality... 07:20 No question. 07:22 And that would make a holy nation 07:24 in the generic sense 07:26 because nobody's ever gonna be... 07:27 I mean you're not gonna 07:28 have a whole population that are all, 07:31 you know, like priests and can they, 07:33 this is not going to happen, 07:35 but I think miracles could happen, 07:37 and my take on the reformation is that it 07:42 created not just more Bible study 07:44 but more holiness, more godly living 07:48 and changes happened in Europe, 07:50 some of them not good 07:52 but generally very positive influences. 07:55 No question. 07:56 And we are due for renewal of that in the year I sense. 07:58 Right, I agree with that... 07:59 I don't think there is any question. 08:01 In conversation you mentioned the second great awakening, 08:04 the first great awakening and the second, 08:06 I think the third, the timing is a little off, 08:09 I think the third was partly stillborn. 08:13 You remember the Jesus movement? 08:14 Oh, yeah. 08:15 I believe that was the sputtering beginnings 08:17 of the third great awakening 08:19 and it's a little overdue 08:20 but I do believe something will happen 08:22 and probably some bad things 08:23 but beyond that I think 08:26 there has to be a true search for God 08:30 but a Muslim or a Buddhist listening to me will say, 08:35 "Well, that's sort of rude 08:36 because you expect it to be your God." 08:37 Right. 08:39 People have to find God for themselves 08:40 but speaking as a Christian, 08:42 I do believe 08:44 that God will be found amid trials 08:47 and the US has the potential to move that way in a big way. 08:52 Exactly, we got to keep a sense of proportion here 08:54 and remind people, you know, 08:56 we're not talking about Christians being 08:57 two or three percent of the populace conservative, 09:01 call them traditional if you want, Bible believing, 09:04 call them born again, all those different names. 09:06 Christians total about 40 percent in American society. 09:11 So when I speak to them and I'm one of them, 09:14 so it's easy to speak to them. 09:15 I said, "We'll become the church 09:17 or redemptive church result in light church, 09:19 we can have a huge impact on the society. 09:21 And by the way if you start adding conservative Catholics 09:24 on top of that and other, 09:25 other groups that are not maybe in the evangelical mold. 09:28 You're talking about more than half the country. 09:29 So the indictment is not so much against the secular, 09:32 it's against the church. 09:34 It's against the Christians... 09:35 Absolutely, I've never seen secularism 09:37 as an existential threat to religion in the world 09:39 or in the US. 09:41 If half the country are Christians 09:43 who believe scripture is true and Jesus as Lord. 09:46 Then that's a searing indictment 09:49 of the kind of Christianity 09:50 that they're living because that's, 09:52 that's a larger percentage than any other country in the world 09:55 and it means that we ought to be setting, 09:57 helping to set the direction of this country 09:59 not by influencing and controlling politics 10:02 but by the way we're living on the street. 10:04 But, you know, I've often thought about, you know, 10:06 Jesus and the Christian proclamation that he started 10:10 with his 12 apostles and the 70. 10:13 So let's allow it was, you know 82 people, 10:16 they changed the world. 10:19 So you don't need even the 40 million... 10:21 Right. 10:22 But and I don't know if you thought about it much. 10:24 I've never read anyway 10:25 but by my observation 10:27 radical movements whether it's the... 10:30 you know the communist revolution in Russia 10:32 or the French Revolution usually the revolutions 10:35 but, you know, something that just change, 10:37 puts society turns on its head 10:40 don't require a majority of the population motivated. 10:43 My guess is somewhere around five to eight percent. 10:46 If they really on fire, it's unstoppable. 10:50 Well, and that's something we often forget, 10:51 history is not ruled by the majority, 10:53 it's ruled by the dedicated minority and that's, 10:55 that's certainly the message of Christianity 10:57 and that's why I grieve when I see people 11:01 Christian leaders becoming powerbrokers 11:02 politically in D.C. 11:05 The fact is that we need a little 11:06 what some people have called prophetic distance. 11:09 We need to speak to the system 11:10 not try to influence that much from within. 11:12 I certainly believe in, 11:13 in having an influence and I do personally 11:15 to some extent in D.C. 11:17 But, but the bigger issue is that you are living a life 11:20 and have a, have a authority by the way you're living 11:23 that it can change things. 11:25 That's my view in a nutshell. 11:28 You're welcome to take this program over from me. 11:32 I think we see it exactly. 11:34 And you know I know you... 11:36 over the years you've had very many good contacts 11:38 with the religious right, 11:39 and I have good vibes towards them, 11:42 and most of them are very good people, 11:44 most of them are doing very good thing. 11:46 It's just this poison pill of seeking political power 11:49 for its own name, 11:50 that's what has to be avoided and you know I alluded. 11:51 And I have to say that 11:53 the Trump candidacy 11:55 whatever people believe about Trump 11:57 show this to some extent a lot of the religious... 12:01 You mean, holding their nose and going for it anyway, yeah. 12:03 Or, you know, one of the worst days 12:06 I had in the entire campaign was 12:08 when the video came out with him speaking 12:11 so wily about his treatment of women. 12:13 And evangelical women went 12:15 were furious when religious leaders, 12:18 evangelical religious leaders 12:19 continued to support Trump and say, 12:21 "Ah, that's just boys in the locker room." 12:22 And women were saying, "Look we're out here being, 12:24 we're out here being here abused, 12:25 we're out here being spoken to wily, 12:27 we're out here being raped 12:28 and you cannot countenance the stuff 12:30 for the sake of political power." 12:31 And that they called me 12:33 because they knew where I was people like Beth 12:34 and others and you know to spoke with so on, 12:37 on video and in social media. 12:41 And I'm telling you that 12:42 those kinds of separations are coming 12:44 because we are willing to overlook 12:46 so much of what we believe 12:47 for the sake of political power and that's idolatry, 12:49 it's got to stop. 12:50 Good point. 12:51 Early Adventist would counsel 12:53 that when they voted for someone 12:55 that they really had a moral stake in 12:57 what that person did 12:59 and this is sort of another way, 13:00 do you want to buy into that sort of agenda. 13:02 Right. 13:04 Well, and I don't think we want to buy into a secular agenda 13:07 'cause I don't think we're going to buy 13:09 into the agenda of any one candidate. 13:11 That's why we need to be maintaining prophetic distances 13:13 speaking the truth in love. 13:16 Religious freedom is not just any freedom. 13:19 As one leading politician once said, 13:21 "You can pretty much gauge this, 13:23 the state of all civil liberties 13:26 by the state of religious freedom." 13:28 In the United States today, 13:30 in the aftermath of a much contested presidential election 13:34 and much uncertainty 13:36 by the general populace about the, 13:38 even the need for our present political system, 13:41 we must be quite clear 13:44 that civil liberties are as important as ever 13:48 and an understanding of the role of faith 13:51 and of the freedom to practice faith in the society is 13:54 absolutely central for continued liberty of any type. 13:59 We need an educated populace. 14:01 We need a convicted populace 14:04 who will proclaim loud and clear. 14:07 Freedom, religious freedom, 14:10 the right to worship and practice 14:12 what we believe is central. 14:15 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2016-11-17