Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break in
discussion with my guest,
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we were projecting
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and I know a lot of people
including Yogi Berra says,
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it's always hard to project
especially about the future
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or something to that effect.
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But we have to...
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Sure.
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We're forward
thinking people. Sure.
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So, you know,
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where does religion in the world
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but in particular
in the United States go
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because you and I agreed,
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I think most of our
audience would agree
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that it's a necessary
part of the human psyche
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and there is a divine,
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you can't have a society
that keeps religion so private
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that it doesn't have
any part of group activity,
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but where does it go?
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I think globally,
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religion in returning to
the traditional categories,
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the Russian
Orthodox Church in Russia,
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you know, Petro-Islam
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throughout the
Middle East etcetera.
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In the United States I
think you're moving towards
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the greater
customization of faith.
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Example, Hillary Clinton says
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that she's a
social justice Methodist
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but if you hear
her describe Methodism,
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it's not anything that
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John Wesley
would have described,
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would have understood.
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He would have understood
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something about
caring for the poor,
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you know, etcetera.
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But Mrs. Clinton
can do to an entire talk
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on her social gospel Methodist
and never mention Jesus,
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never mention salvation.
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My point is not to pick on her.
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That's the engine
driving those wheels.
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Exactly, exactly.
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My point is that
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especially with the
millennial on the rise,
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they curate religions,
they do cafeteria faith,
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they take whatever,
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they really don't care
about that much what's true,
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they care about
what works for them.
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So they're likely in nine or
ten different pieces of faith.
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Well, so as a result,
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you have greater
customization in the US
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and yet no less religiosity,
no or less religious fervor.
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And then of course,
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globally you have this
written traditional religions
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so I think it's a
more complicated world
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and certainly in
terms of American politics,
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it means we got to
ask a lot of questions
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because I think we will have
millennials running who say,
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I'm spiritual but not religious,
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and then you have to unpack
what all that means for them
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because it's gonna influence
what they do in office.
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Let me throw you a question,
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you might not gotta
like this but, you know,
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I lived most of
my life in the US
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but I came from Australia
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and always sort
of have another look.
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I know that a lot of
the rest of the world
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sees American religion
as sort of pop psychology
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or prosperity
gospel, is sort of,
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I know, it's not religious
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but the Zig Ziglar
type religion which...
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I was at a conference in Germany
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once where Zig Ziglar type
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motivational speaker was
brought over from America
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and the Germans were offended
to the extreme, walked out,
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you know, they said, "Do
you think we're children?"
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Yeah.
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That is not the sort of religion
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of the rest of the
west which is very cynical.
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Right.
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You know, but
that's where it's going,
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they make churches
where people are told
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how wonderful they are
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and everything
good can come to you
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as you follow the Lord.
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Well, that's not
the biblical approach.
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In fact Jesus said, you know,
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in the world you'll
have trouble, it's a promise.
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Right, right.
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And I think you are putting
everything on a good thing,
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that some of what passes for
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American religion is
sort of a hot house situation
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where it only who
would grow in that context,
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and I actually encourage some
of these guys to get overseas
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because if you are sitting there
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and looking at
refugees in Africa,
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if you are sitting
there looking there at Germans
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who are enduring
what they're enduring now,
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your thinking changes a bit,
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you grab different
truths out of scripture,
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you become more fully orbed.
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So the scripture
in some broad way
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promise blessing to
those who are faithful,
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I mean...
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Yeah, of course.
Of course it does.
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And so in that sense
there is some prosperity
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aspect to the
covenants and what have you,
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but to make it the
center of the gospel is heresy,
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and it's certainly
isn't going to work
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in other parts of the world.
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I'm actually
setting you for a full...
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Oh, that's fine, go ahead.
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Go ahead, I'm off for it.
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Now...
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Yeah, this is how
we have discussion.
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2008 is a strong memory with me
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and I think most of our society
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and it's not just
the strong possibility,
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it's cyclical certainty that
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there will be as great perhaps
greater financial collapse
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certainly in our lifetime.
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When that comes,
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what will happen to this
form of religious expression
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which is sort of a positive,
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we could do
everything, God is...
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As George Bush said, you know,
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God has blessed America
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and he couldn't bless
more deserving people.
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But when he appears
not to be blessing America,
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we now suddenly not
deserving, where will this go?
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Yeah, I think another
financial collapse will again
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challenge this kind of thinking.
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I mean, we've actually
seen a decline in adherence
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since 2008
because it's not based,
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first of all in reality
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and second of all it's
not based on scripture.
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It's an extreme.
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I mean, as we just said,
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is there an
element of truth in it.
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Yes, the generous man prospers,
we're told in scripture,
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but to believe that all of us
ought to be driving, you know,
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in Bentley's and
having our private jets
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and that's the heart of
the gospel is just silly.
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And it works for those who
have gigantic mailing lists
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and big media ministries.
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The average person
just wants to make sure
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his needs are met so he
can get on with living for God
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and that's where the
emphasis ought to be,
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and I think most
Christians in the world
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would accept that level.
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And of course, so
another financial collapse,
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well, I think will challenge
this theology even further.
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Like yeah, I can
answer my own question.
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I hope and think
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that many people faced
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with a huge
stress in their lives
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and the national conversation
will be full spec to God
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in a way that they
have never been before
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and true spirituality will rise,
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but I also suspect and
it's the pattern of history
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that it will lead to
a sort of a religious
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demagoguery in the end,
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so the idea
that we need the NASA
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to shape a whole country
up by a centralized edict
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and then God will bless us again
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and now as the righteous nation
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we can move
ahead, is that danger.
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Oh, there's absolutely no danger
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and I think we've seen
that in history before.
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Yes.
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That was behind Naziism,
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that has been behind other sort
of faith based insurgencies,
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faith based tyrannies.
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So I think it's a great concern
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and that's why
that we've got to watch
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our theology more closely
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both as the
church and in politics.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, you and I agree way
more than I ever expected.
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Just to reiterate
a public discussion.
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You know our
religious liberty department
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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really got its
origins in the late 1800s
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and around 1888 was when
it really hit its stride,
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because there was a
national Sunday law in the US
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that was nothing to do with...
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Well, I should I say
nothing to do with the blue law,
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but it was way
beyond the blue law,
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it was an overt mandate that
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all activity would cease
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and everybody would go
to church on a certain day.
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Well, you know, that's
against the constitution
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even though back then it
was had broad popular support.
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The answer that our then
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religious
liberty leaders saw it,
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of course
beyond giving testimony
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and rousing people was
to go back to his members
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and call for a revival.
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And in my view
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this is the
greatest need of society,
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in the US's religious society.
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It's one thing to
have political power
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for religious interests
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but we need more spirituality...
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No question.
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And that would
make a holy nation
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in the generic sense
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because
nobody's ever gonna be...
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I mean you're not gonna
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have a whole
population that are all,
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you know, like
priests and can they,
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this is not going to happen,
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but I think
miracles could happen,
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and my take on the
reformation is that it
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created not
just more Bible study
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but more
holiness, more godly living
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and changes happened in Europe,
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some of them not good
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but generally very
positive influences.
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No question.
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And we are due for renewal
of that in the year I sense.
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Right, I agree with that...
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I don't think
there is any question.
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In conversation you mentioned
the second great awakening,
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the first great
awakening and the second,
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I think the third, the
timing is a little off,
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I think the third
was partly stillborn.
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You remember the Jesus movement?
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Oh, yeah.
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I believe that was
the sputtering beginnings
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of the third great awakening
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and it's a little overdue
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but I do believe
something will happen
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and probably some bad things
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but beyond that I think
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there has to be a
true search for God
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but a Muslim or a Buddhist
listening to me will say,
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"Well, that's sort of rude
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because you expect
it to be your God."
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Right.
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People have to
find God for themselves
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but speaking as a Christian,
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I do believe
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that God will be
found amid trials
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and the US has the potential
to move that way in a big way.
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Exactly, we got to keep
a sense of proportion here
00:08:52.96\00:08:54.76
and remind people, you know,
00:08:54.80\00:08:56.13
we're not talking
about Christians being
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two or three percent of
the populace conservative,
00:08:57.73\00:09:01.67
call them traditional if
you want, Bible believing,
00:09:01.70\00:09:04.14
call them born again,
all those different names.
00:09:04.17\00:09:06.31
Christians total about 40
percent in American society.
00:09:06.34\00:09:11.15
So when I speak to
them and I'm one of them,
00:09:11.18\00:09:14.25
so it's easy to speak to them.
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I said, "We'll become the church
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or redemptive church
result in light church,
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we can have a huge
impact on the society.
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And by the way if you start
adding conservative Catholics
00:09:21.96\00:09:24.06
on top of that and other,
00:09:24.09\00:09:25.43
other groups that are not
maybe in the evangelical mold.
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You're talking about
more than half the country.
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So the indictment is not
so much against the secular,
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it's against the church.
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It's against the Christians...
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Absolutely, I've
never seen secularism
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as an existential
threat to religion in the world
00:09:37.27\00:09:39.77
or in the US.
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If half the
country are Christians
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who believe scripture
is true and Jesus as Lord.
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Then that's a searing indictment
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of the kind of Christianity
00:09:49.12\00:09:50.45
that they're
living because that's,
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that's a larger percentage than
any other country in the world
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and it means that
we ought to be setting,
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helping to set the
direction of this country
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not by influencing
and controlling politics
00:09:59.33\00:10:02.20
but by the way we're
living on the street.
00:10:02.23\00:10:04.10
But, you know, I've
often thought about, you know,
00:10:04.13\00:10:06.63
Jesus and the Christian
proclamation that he started
00:10:06.67\00:10:10.11
with his 12 apostles and the 70.
00:10:10.14\00:10:13.44
So let's allow it
was, you know 82 people,
00:10:13.48\00:10:16.95
they changed the world.
00:10:16.98\00:10:19.45
So you don't need
even the 40 million...
00:10:19.48\00:10:21.18
Right.
00:10:21.22\00:10:22.55
But and I don't know if
you thought about it much.
00:10:22.58\00:10:24.25
I've never read anyway
00:10:24.29\00:10:25.72
but by my observation
00:10:25.75\00:10:27.32
radical movements
whether it's the...
00:10:27.36\00:10:30.63
you know the
communist revolution in Russia
00:10:30.66\00:10:32.43
or the French Revolution
usually the revolutions
00:10:32.46\00:10:35.16
but, you know,
something that just change,
00:10:35.20\00:10:37.20
puts society turns on its head
00:10:37.23\00:10:40.34
don't require a majority
of the population motivated.
00:10:40.37\00:10:43.71
My guess is somewhere
around five to eight percent.
00:10:43.74\00:10:46.57
If they really on
fire, it's unstoppable.
00:10:46.61\00:10:50.15
Well, and that's
something we often forget,
00:10:50.18\00:10:51.51
history is not
ruled by the majority,
00:10:51.55\00:10:53.18
it's ruled by the
dedicated minority and that's,
00:10:53.21\00:10:55.82
that's certainly the
message of Christianity
00:10:55.85\00:10:57.79
and that's why I
grieve when I see people
00:10:57.82\00:11:01.02
Christian leaders
becoming powerbrokers
00:11:01.06\00:11:02.52
politically in D.C.
00:11:02.56\00:11:05.13
The fact is
that we need a little
00:11:05.16\00:11:06.49
what some people have
called prophetic distance.
00:11:06.53\00:11:08.96
We need to speak to the system
00:11:09.00\00:11:10.33
not try to influence
that much from within.
00:11:10.37\00:11:12.17
I certainly believe in,
00:11:12.20\00:11:13.54
in having an
influence and I do personally
00:11:13.57\00:11:15.90
to some extent in D.C.
00:11:15.94\00:11:17.27
But, but the bigger issue
is that you are living a life
00:11:17.31\00:11:20.41
and have a, have a authority
by the way you're living
00:11:20.44\00:11:23.65
that it can change things.
00:11:23.68\00:11:25.71
That's my view in a nutshell.
00:11:25.75\00:11:28.82
You're welcome to take
this program over from me.
00:11:28.85\00:11:32.82
I think we see it exactly.
00:11:32.85\00:11:34.36
And you know I know you...
00:11:34.39\00:11:36.73
over the years you've
had very many good contacts
00:11:36.76\00:11:38.53
with the religious right,
00:11:38.56\00:11:39.89
and I have good
vibes towards them,
00:11:39.93\00:11:42.13
and most of them
are very good people,
00:11:42.16\00:11:44.43
most of them are
doing very good thing.
00:11:44.47\00:11:46.63
It's just this poison
pill of seeking political power
00:11:46.67\00:11:49.10
for its own name,
00:11:49.14\00:11:50.47
that's what has to be
avoided and you know I alluded.
00:11:50.51\00:11:51.91
And I have to say that
00:11:51.94\00:11:53.84
the Trump candidacy
00:11:53.88\00:11:55.48
whatever people
believe about Trump
00:11:55.51\00:11:57.35
show this to some extent
a lot of the religious...
00:11:57.38\00:12:01.22
You mean, holding their nose
and going for it anyway, yeah.
00:12:01.25\00:12:03.79
Or, you know,
one of the worst days
00:12:03.82\00:12:06.42
I had in the entire campaign was
00:12:06.45\00:12:08.59
when the video came
out with him speaking
00:12:08.62\00:12:11.33
so wily about his
treatment of women.
00:12:11.36\00:12:13.66
And evangelical women went
00:12:13.70\00:12:15.86
were furious when
religious leaders,
00:12:15.90\00:12:18.43
evangelical religious leaders
00:12:18.47\00:12:19.80
continued to
support Trump and say,
00:12:19.83\00:12:21.17
"Ah, that's just
boys in the locker room."
00:12:21.20\00:12:22.90
And women were saying,
"Look we're out here being,
00:12:22.94\00:12:24.31
we're out here
being here abused,
00:12:24.34\00:12:25.67
we're out here
being spoken to wily,
00:12:25.71\00:12:27.04
we're out here being raped
00:12:27.08\00:12:28.74
and you cannot
countenance the stuff
00:12:28.78\00:12:30.28
for the sake of
political power."
00:12:30.31\00:12:31.65
And that they called me
00:12:31.68\00:12:33.18
because they knew
where I was people like Beth
00:12:33.21\00:12:34.55
and others and you
know to spoke with so on,
00:12:34.58\00:12:37.72
on video and in social media.
00:12:37.75\00:12:41.19
And I'm telling you that
00:12:41.22\00:12:42.56
those kinds of
separations are coming
00:12:42.59\00:12:44.09
because we are
willing to overlook
00:12:44.13\00:12:46.29
so much of what we believe
00:12:46.33\00:12:47.66
for the sake of political
power and that's idolatry,
00:12:47.70\00:12:49.20
it's got to stop.
00:12:49.23\00:12:50.57
Good point.
00:12:50.60\00:12:51.93
Early Adventist would counsel
00:12:51.97\00:12:53.74
that when they voted for someone
00:12:53.77\00:12:55.10
that they really
had a moral stake in
00:12:55.14\00:12:57.67
what that person did
00:12:57.71\00:12:59.04
and this is sort of another way,
00:12:59.07\00:13:00.41
do you want to buy
into that sort of agenda.
00:13:00.44\00:13:02.81
Right.
00:13:02.84\00:13:04.18
Well, and I don't think we want
to buy into a secular agenda
00:13:04.21\00:13:07.88
'cause I don't
think we're going to buy
00:13:07.92\00:13:09.25
into the agenda
of any one candidate.
00:13:09.28\00:13:11.05
That's why we need to be
maintaining prophetic distances
00:13:11.09\00:13:13.42
speaking the truth in love.
00:13:13.46\00:13:16.12
Religious freedom is
not just any freedom.
00:13:16.16\00:13:19.73
As one leading
politician once said,
00:13:19.76\00:13:21.76
"You can pretty much gauge this,
00:13:21.80\00:13:23.83
the state of all civil liberties
00:13:23.87\00:13:26.00
by the state of
religious freedom."
00:13:26.03\00:13:28.47
In the United States today,
00:13:28.50\00:13:30.14
in the aftermath of a much
contested presidential election
00:13:30.17\00:13:34.91
and much uncertainty
00:13:34.94\00:13:36.88
by the general
populace about the,
00:13:36.91\00:13:38.78
even the need for our
present political system,
00:13:38.81\00:13:41.62
we must be quite clear
00:13:41.65\00:13:44.42
that civil liberties
are as important as ever
00:13:44.45\00:13:48.02
and an understanding
of the role of faith
00:13:48.06\00:13:51.39
and of the freedom to
practice faith in the society is
00:13:51.43\00:13:54.63
absolutely central for
continued liberty of any type.
00:13:54.66\00:13:59.90
We need an educated populace.
00:13:59.93\00:14:01.94
We need a convicted populace
00:14:01.97\00:14:04.17
who will
proclaim loud and clear.
00:14:04.21\00:14:07.48
Freedom, religious freedom,
00:14:07.51\00:14:10.51
the right to
worship and practice
00:14:10.55\00:14:12.51
what we believe is central.
00:14:12.55\00:14:15.28
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:14:15.32\00:14:17.82