Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000341B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break with guest Steve Mansfield 00:09 or Dr. Stephen Mansfield. 00:12 Dr, Steve, I'm sorry, I use this so familiar. 00:14 I don't mind it at all. 00:16 Or familiar. 00:19 I had asked you the question which really is troubling, 00:22 I don't totally know the answer. 00:23 The Religious Right 00:25 conservative group in America 00:28 that were really seeking some political influence 00:31 under Jerry Falwell 00:33 and the few others had a certain role 00:35 and it seemed to me, 00:36 it ended almost with his death, but why? 00:39 It did, I mean, to some extent 00:41 the Religious Right was just an illusion network 00:43 of media ministries, 00:44 it wasn't an official organization. 00:46 I understand. Yeah. 00:47 But when Jerry Falwell died, a number of things happened. 00:50 First of all he had a level of sophistication 00:52 believe it or not, 00:53 most people don't think in those terms 00:55 about how to engage politicians about his presence 00:58 in the national media that was galvanizing. 01:01 When he passed away 01:03 then you had a number of other people 01:05 to sort of expressing their views and endorsing 01:07 and it really showed up 01:08 in the last presidential election 01:11 when Mitt Romney was running against Barack Obama 01:14 you had, you know, James Dobson endorsed one candidate 01:18 and did it three weeks before the man dropped out of office, 01:20 he endorsed Huckabee, others endorsed, 01:22 I mean, it was frayed, it didn't speak with one voice... 01:24 I like to put it another way 01:26 if it's like the last gasp for that type of... 01:28 Exactly. 01:29 The religious conservative. 01:31 I think the last presidential election 01:32 really was sort of that. 01:33 The death of the Right only as a monolithic group, 01:37 but now they're still present but it's fractured, 01:39 different endorsements, different attitudes, 01:41 different views and of course, 01:42 the Trump phenomenon has been very divisive. 01:45 Just on the flight, one way I could characterize 01:48 it is even thought the religious block 01:52 tend to be conservative in their political outlook, 01:56 there was a shift within that group 01:58 from conservative religious viewpoint 02:00 to a more liberal viewpoint. 02:02 Yes. 02:03 A couple of things were happening there, 02:05 first of all millennials where you might call them 02:07 evangelical millennials are coming online 02:09 and they are not as right leaning. 02:10 Part of it is what we've already discussed 02:12 which is that there are some issues 02:14 that a young conservative social justice minded 02:17 evangelical millennial would say, wait a minute, 02:21 there are some things on the left 02:22 that are also biblical, 02:24 our social justice courts, poverty, 02:27 and you didn't hear that 02:28 addressed very much by the Religious Right. 02:31 But I think the other thing that is a factor in this too 02:35 is that you simply had a bad job 02:38 done on the Right of explaining their worldview. 02:41 It became single issue and it also sounded negative, 02:45 I mean a Christian who is speaking 02:47 into the realm of politics is not primarily anti, 02:51 there are pro certain things, 02:52 I want to help the poor, 02:53 I want there to be social justice... 02:55 It wasn't made clear but I agree with you. 02:56 No, it's anti women to get abortion, 02:58 I'm anti gays, 03:00 and I realize not everybody is doing that 03:01 but that was the presentation to the culture. 03:03 Well, may be enact to the media 03:05 because they have advice to present it that way. 03:07 Well, the young absorb that deeply 03:08 and so they are more Left leaning, 03:10 so there is no question 03:11 that there has been a shift 03:12 and that there are many democratic evangelicals, 03:15 many, many, some would say, 03:17 actually, I think they should poor 03:19 and social justice are closer to the heart of the God, 03:21 there may be even some of these other 03:22 hot-button issues for the Right. 03:24 Absolutely. I agree. 03:25 So they're sort of born again on the Left, you know. 03:27 Yeah, I think once or twice in previous years 03:32 I've mentioned this but this is perfect. 03:33 Do you remember the Opus cartoon? 03:37 There was a one once 03:38 during a previous presidential election 03:40 and the penguin character got up, 03:43 he was running for public office 03:45 and he starts spouting often about his religion, 03:49 he says, I believe in religion that's right, 03:51 up to 20% more than my nearest opponent. 03:54 And someone says, but what about walrus angels? 03:57 And he says, oh, yes, 03:58 there is walrus angels and they kick him out 04:00 and as he's being kicked out 04:01 he says conspicuous religiosity is so dangerous. 04:06 Well, that's very much what we're dealing with. 04:07 Yes, everyone likes the idea... 04:10 well, not everyone, 04:11 but there's a general acceptance of religiosity 04:15 but if it's a particular like Mitt Romney 04:16 or something that others don't like 04:18 then you're in trouble, so. 04:20 I think they're playing the religion game, 04:21 but not too much to defense. 04:24 Well, I don't want, 04:26 make turn politicians into theologians, 04:28 I don't want invade their private life 04:29 No, they're not, absolutely. 04:31 I don't want to get into their families, religious life. 04:34 But we're talking about again if a politician is sincere, 04:37 their faith shapes them profoundly, 04:40 and there are non bigoted, 04:41 sophisticated questions we can ask. 04:43 Again I would raise the question 04:45 if Mrs. Clinton was sitting here, 04:46 "Ma'am, your social justice 04:48 method is by your own description, 04:50 you come from, you say a strong Biblical base. 04:53 There have been massive reversals of policy 04:55 on exactly those issues, 04:57 help us understand how your faith shapes your politics 05:00 in a consistent manner, 05:01 that's a legitimate question, it's not bigoted, 05:03 it's based on the record. 05:05 Walter Cronkite could have asked a question 05:06 like that without any problem. 05:08 And yet we don't find those questions being asked. 05:10 In fact all the presidential 05:11 and vice presidential debates are over now, 05:13 and there was only one that even came close 05:16 to being on the issue of faith and had to do with abortion. 05:18 So we're not taking this seriously 05:20 and yet I'll tell you 05:22 which ever candidate gets into office, 05:24 Trump or Clinton, 05:25 there will be a profound 05:27 faith influence of one kind or another. 05:29 Oh, yes, I think that's... 05:30 Well, I'd like to like to know what that is now. 05:33 And you really comment about 05:35 we shouldn't expect these people to be theologians 05:38 or even spokesman for their, 05:40 spokespeople for their church. 05:42 As the Seventh-day Adventist, you know, 05:45 me and my fellow Adventists we thought that 05:48 because Ben Carson was one of the candidates, 05:50 he did quite well. 05:52 And in no way was he officially or just anything more, 05:56 it was never anything more 05:57 than he just happen to be a Seventh-day Adventist. 05:58 Right, right. 06:00 He had the opportunity 06:02 if asked to explain his personal beliefs 06:05 which were the Adventist persuasion 06:07 and we would know this that, 06:09 you know, he would sort of embarrass us. 06:11 But I don't we should have. 06:12 No, he did very well. 06:14 And I don't even think either 06:15 that he was adequately asked about his unfaith. 06:18 Yeah. 06:19 It was dodged, and Trump at one stage maligned it 06:23 I think unfairly. 06:24 Right, it was either dodged or lampooned. 06:26 Yeah, but that's a bit of wordy length. 06:28 Where is the open discussion about what he really believes? 06:30 Why don't we just have it out, I mean to agree or disagree, 06:33 let's have it out. 06:34 So I think there are number of reasons for this, 06:36 I think people believe 06:38 and like my grandmother used to say, 06:39 and my grandmother said, 06:41 don't talk about religion and politics in polite company. 06:43 She was the southern. 06:44 Well, that's where I spend most of my days doing, 06:46 but why can't we talk about religion 06:48 when it comes to governance? 06:50 So if a candidate is largely secular, 06:52 I'm not going to trouble them about the issue of religion, 06:54 but if they're saying, 06:56 I'm running on a strong faith bases 06:57 and it will affect what I do in the oval office. 06:59 Well, we ask them to disclose what associations they have, 07:01 if they've ever been a member of the clan, 07:03 if they've never been a member of out golf club 07:05 that did a bit black or sort of Hispanic, I mean, 07:07 we want to know where they come. 07:08 So this is not bigotry, 07:10 I'm not wanting to persecute them, 07:11 but I do want to understand what's going to influence him. 07:13 And we have a childish level of discussion about religion 07:15 in most of our presidential campaigns. 07:17 It's true, and you know, 07:19 you're historian 07:21 and I'm sure you've either written 07:22 or spoken about this but the world is becoming 07:27 more of a globe of religious identity than ever before. 07:30 I know Henry Kissinger is big on the treaties 07:35 that ended the 30 years war, I should remember it. 07:38 Was failure. Was failure. 07:39 Yeah. 07:41 Treaty was failure 07:42 which established the nation states 07:43 and he and others have noted 07:45 that was sort of in the devolution 07:46 of the nation state and what's being replaced 07:49 of these groupings sometimes tribal 07:51 but nearly always religious groupings. 07:53 Right. 07:54 And of course that war on terror, 07:56 we don't like to say it, but it's really got a distinct, 07:59 in fact an aggressive religious stance. 08:01 No question. 08:03 And we shouldn't let it devolve into 08:05 crusade of Christians against Islam again but that said, 08:09 it's not radically different from the old conflicts 08:12 that are now coming back with the modern face. 08:14 No. 08:15 So we have to, at the very least ask of our leaders, 08:19 what do they think about religion 08:20 and what they already have 08:22 prepackaged is very important, isn't it? 08:24 Very important. 08:25 And Ronald Reagan, remember The Evil Empire. 08:27 You're right. 08:28 That wasn't just a figure of speech, 08:30 that came from his Protestant mentality. 08:33 No question about it. 08:34 And I think there are two things too, 08:36 first of all what does the candidate believe? 08:38 And second of all, what does the candidate know? 08:40 I understand we can't give them a doctoral exam 08:42 or something of that nature, 08:44 but you know, it's pretty important today 08:46 that you know the difference between Sunni and Shia. 08:49 It's pretty important that you can distinguish, you know, 08:53 just in the news this morning when I got up, 08:55 a Sikh was beaten by a man in California 08:58 because the man thought he was the follower of ISIS. 09:01 Well, the ignorance is unbelievable 09:03 but you know there were Sikhs killed 09:05 right after 9/11 in America. 09:06 Well, I was going to say that's very bad 09:07 because in 16 years we haven't come very far 09:11 because that was one of the first phenomena after 9/11, 09:14 Sikhs being beaten up. 09:15 Actually killed, there were couple of them actually killed. 09:17 Well, my point is where's the... 09:19 I mean I'm not tasking the press 09:22 with the educational function, 09:23 they should be talking about 09:25 what's going on these candidates. 09:26 But there should have been a shift 09:28 in our curriculum in our schools. 09:29 You should not be able to graduate 09:30 from high school in America 09:32 without taking a course in religions, 09:34 that's about religion history not about proselytizing. 09:37 Yeah, now you're getting on to a topic 09:39 as we're getting close to running out of time, 09:42 but you know, our religious liberty department 09:44 in the Seventh-day Adventist church is of long standing 09:47 and one of the issues that 09:49 we dealt with this is part of separation of church and state, 09:53 making sure that doctrine or religious instruction is kept 09:59 for the church school or the home. 10:00 Sure. 10:01 But, well, your point is absolutely correct. 10:04 I think teaching about religion should be 10:08 also the responsibility of the state. 10:10 Knowledge of religion is knowledge. 10:13 Absolutely, and you know what's interesting is 10:14 there's across the board agreement about this, 10:16 you know, who are some of the strongest advocates are 10:18 for that kind of education, 10:19 the American Civil Liberties Union. 10:20 Yes. 10:22 They are strong advocates for, 10:23 now I'm not an advocate 10:24 for the American Civil Liberties Union, 10:26 but at least they turn to public schools and say, 10:28 look we only sue you 10:29 because you practice religion on school grounds, 10:31 now I disagree with their approach, 10:33 but we're strongly advocating for the teaching of religion 10:35 as an academic subject, so where is the resistance. 10:37 I think it's frankly that 10:39 we don't have teacher prepare to teach it. 10:40 Yeah, so where do we get from there. 10:43 We're running out of time radically 10:46 just a couple of minutes left. 10:48 We're really essentially through this election 10:50 where there was a higher role of religious identity 10:55 but yet not so obvious. 10:57 I think you would agree with that, 10:59 but is more important than ever. 11:01 As we move beyond this, 11:02 do you expect the next election 11:04 to even be more religiously oriented in the expectation 11:07 and how should the voter, 11:09 the citizen relate to their elected leaders on religion, 11:13 should they be judging them on this level 11:16 or just on secular performance? 11:19 Well, no, they've got to ask the questions about religion 11:21 and we're living in an age 11:22 that's really fastening from the standpoint 11:24 of the average guy in the street. 11:25 The average guy in street now can raise questions 11:28 hash tag with tweets, put things on Facebook, 11:30 and the campaigns will notice. 11:32 I've had high school students get their questions answered, 11:34 you know, in broader forums 11:36 because they're using social media wisely. 11:38 Also I think we're going to have to start 11:40 pushing in our schools 11:41 for greater degree of religious education. 11:43 I think we're gonna have to start urging the press. 11:45 Many newspapers are dropping 11:47 their faith in culture journalists. 11:49 And so that reporting is left to people 11:51 who don't really know what they are doing. 11:53 So in a way what you are saying is 11:54 it needs to be more citizen involvement, 11:56 we can't sit back passively as people of faith 11:59 and just think that it will take care of itself. 12:03 No, we absolutely have to have more citizen involvement 12:06 and I want to say as a way of encouraging 12:08 your viewers too that this is an era 12:10 in which everybody can be heard, 12:12 you can write letters to the editor, 12:13 there are faith forums, you can use Twitter, 12:16 Facebook where the campaigns are watching 12:18 and the average person can have a tremendous impact 12:20 just by raising these questions. 12:23 There was a time when global philosophies converged 12:27 when Plato and Aristotle were the benchmark 12:30 both for the Islamic world 12:32 which had rediscovered these things 12:35 from the ancient world 12:36 and for the growing western civilization. 12:39 And in Plato you will find the seminal work the republic 12:45 where he opined that 12:46 rulers should be taken away from any gain or possibility of 12:51 personal advancement in ruling 12:54 and that would take 40 years to prepare them for rule. 12:56 Rule 40 years and then they would be exterminated. 12:59 We're not at that stage 13:00 but we are at the point I believe 13:03 where rulers need to be just honorable 13:07 and moral and really need to accept 13:10 the public trust not as taking power, 13:13 but to be leaders who have a moral center. 13:17 In the election just concluded in the United States, 13:20 this became a subtext. 13:23 It's very sad that 13:24 so many people can dismiss these attributes out of hand, 13:28 because only with strict personal morality, 13:32 dignity, honesty 13:34 and responsibility to vote others. 13:36 Well, any system to be successful 13:39 and any people be honored through their rulers. 13:43 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2016-11-17