Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000341A
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00:28 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:30 This is the program bringing you 00:31 news, views, information 00:34 and really an up-to-date analysis 00:35 of religious liberty issues 00:37 in the US and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:42 and my guest on the program Dr. Stephen Mansfield, 00:46 best selling author, lecturer, 00:49 sort of man of letters generally. 00:51 Thank you. 00:52 And it's my privilege to have you on the program, Stephen, 00:56 and in particular he is a little ad of sorts. 01:00 We've just, as we're recording this printed our issue 01:04 that has an article about you 01:06 on the US election but in some ways, 01:09 it's a recapitulation of some of your material 01:11 in your latest book, isn't it? 01:13 Yes, it is. 01:14 What is that, Ask the Question? 01:15 Ask the Question, and the subtitle is 01:17 Why We Must Demand Religious Clarity 01:18 from Our Presidential Candidates? 01:19 And I'll ask you that question, why? 01:22 Did we demand religious clarity from our candidates 01:24 because as you yourself say in the... 01:27 or in the blurb of the book, 01:29 in others the no religious test for public office... 01:31 Right. 01:32 But should we test those that we vote for in essence. 01:36 Well, the constitution does ban religious test 01:39 but the founding fathers intended 01:40 that the people would pay attention to religion. 01:42 The fact is that almost all of our candidates 01:45 are influenced in some way by religion, 01:47 but because we don't have an open hearing, 01:49 because the press doesn't often do 01:50 a good job with religion, 01:52 we are not asking the right questions. 01:53 We're surprised little bit later, 01:55 we were surprised by faith and its influence 01:57 in Barack Obama's administration. 01:59 We are now looking 02:00 at a campaign with Hillary Clinton, 02:02 perhaps the most faith based politician of our generation. 02:05 Everybody on the right, 02:07 everybody on the conservative side 02:08 was faith based and openly so. 02:10 And so religion is very much shaping our politics 02:12 despite the fact that our, the mood in our academies, 02:15 the mood on the campuses are sort of, 02:17 oh, religion is passing away. 02:18 Nothing could be further from the truth. 02:20 That's true, I agree with you, 02:21 and the US more than most western societies is... 02:26 Well, I'm about to say deeply religious 02:28 but I often myself write about this, 02:31 I make a distinction between religious identity 02:34 and beliefs and religious faith. 02:37 I don't think American society is nearly 02:40 as faith based as it once was or spiritual, 02:44 but the religious identity in the US is stronger than 02:46 most any western country in my judgment. 02:49 No question. 02:50 The way I like to say it is 02:51 that if a candidate's faith is sincere, 02:53 it's the most important thing about them, 02:54 and it will shape what they do in office. 02:56 And if we don't know what that is in advance 02:58 put it in a humorous terms, 02:59 it's like me running for president saying, 03:01 now there is a guy over here name Bob, 03:02 and he's gonna influence everything I do. 03:04 But I'm not gonna tell you about him 03:05 until I'm actually elected. 03:07 Yeah. 03:08 People would laugh at me if I said that but we'll allow, 03:11 we'll vote for a candidate who has a profound faith life 03:13 of one kind to another 03:15 to enter office and we have no idea what that faith is. 03:17 Well, let me take you back a bit 03:19 'cause I'm sure you have written about this 03:21 Mitt Romney running twice, 03:23 ran into a barrage of opposition 03:26 from other people of faith 03:28 because of his particular faith. 03:30 So, you know, 03:32 that was objectionable for some people 03:34 that he had a deep faith. 03:36 Was that correct to cry foul 03:39 because it's an unpopular or a non mainline religious faith. 03:43 Well, I think people were right to ask questions. 03:45 There's no question that 03:46 that people don't understand Mormonism, 03:48 survey show that majority of Americans 03:49 thinks that Mormonism is a cult. 03:51 I admit Romney should have know, this. 03:53 I put this on him a little bit, I mean I like, 03:55 and in fact in one of the chapters 03:57 in my book is called the three words 03:59 because when Mitt Romney 04:00 gave his convention acceptance speech, 04:03 he motioned his Mormonism in three words, 04:05 we were Mormon. 04:07 And he was resentful of the topic 04:08 being brought up at any other time. 04:10 Now, I'm not in anyway anti-Mormon in some raging way 04:13 but I have to say at the same time, 04:15 you're talking about a man 04:16 who was as close to Mormons clergy 04:18 as the Mormons have at a time 04:21 when blacks were kept from the priesthood. 04:24 There are still questions about women so 04:26 if you're going to run in an American democracy for office 04:29 and you are part of a faith that raises these questions, 04:31 you have to really answer them. 04:33 He didn't like answering them 04:34 and then he handled in three words 04:35 and the survey show that it affected 04:37 the outcome of the election. 04:38 Oh, I'm quite certain and Liberty ran 04:40 a few articles on that. 04:41 We actually defended not his particular beliefs 04:44 but we defended him against these hominine attacks 04:49 because of religion. 04:50 But you were very right 04:52 that you can't distance an individual from their religion 04:56 and their philosophical worldview, 04:58 and religion is the ultimate 04:59 philosophical identity, isn't it? 05:01 Well, and also staying with the case of Mormonism. 05:05 The fact is there's the great deal about Mormonism 05:06 to commend it as the faith of our president. 05:09 Again I'm not Mormon, 05:10 and I'm not an advocate for Mormonism 05:12 but it's patriotism, I mean, in sense of morals ethics, 05:17 even if we disagree with some of the supernatural claims 05:19 just at a practical civic level, 05:21 there is a lot to commend it. 05:22 So but we're having more of an erring right now 05:25 than ever was so 05:26 when he was running for president. 05:28 I know. I know. 05:29 Well, and I like to think this program talks respectfully, 05:32 they were about some of the untouchables aspects... 05:35 Good, thank you for doing it. 05:37 And like I had Muslims on here on this program 05:40 and we've spoken very openly about 05:43 some of the closeted aspects of Islam 05:47 which I think need to be discussed not pejoratively 05:51 but just openly and debate 05:53 what effect this could have on the voting. 05:55 We need more shows like this. 05:56 This is the kind of dialog that's not happening elsewhere, 05:59 most of the press is pretty poor about it. 06:01 Most of the press deals with religious 06:03 though it's an oddity, 06:04 as though it's a vote on your note, you know. 06:06 Well, this is what I was gonna say before, 06:07 I think you agree with me. 06:09 We're running blind more and more in the US, 06:12 and certainly in Australia but I come from an England 06:15 because they're even more so than the US 06:16 where the media I think are naturally 06:21 not so much prejudice against religion, 06:23 they're of a secular mindset where it doesn't compute. 06:25 Right, right. 06:27 Seen as an aberration retrograde 06:29 sort of social thinking and so they turn deaf 06:34 on what it really means 06:36 other than sort of religious identity 06:38 like twig on religious identity politics 06:42 but not on its deeper meanings. 06:44 Well, I track this in the book to the influence of a man named 06:47 Herman Auguste Comte and Comte would taught 06:50 that man would eventually outgrow religion 06:52 and would live in a positive state, 06:53 he was the... 06:55 Oh, Christopher Hitchens was on that one. 06:56 Oh yes, absolutely, absolutely. 06:57 But it simply isn't true, Comte was wrong about this, 07:00 he is the father of modern sociology 07:02 and so he gave us many gifts, 07:04 but the idea that man would outgrow religion 07:06 has influenced our academies, 07:08 has influenced our universities, 07:09 that's why you can go clear your doctorate 07:12 and never have had a class on world religions 07:14 but the fact is the world is more religiously contentious 07:18 and more openly religious than maybe any time in history. 07:21 Now, I started Christopher Hitchens 07:22 because he is more recent and he did say 07:24 this is a phenomenon of our infancy. 07:27 Yes. 07:29 So he was always pushing the idea 07:30 that we should grow up and get better. 07:31 Right and he is just wrong about that. 07:33 I think he is wrong about it, 07:34 where he is half right is a lot of religious, 07:39 nativist religious thought is of that, 07:42 oh my superstition and like this with Islam, 07:46 it's often been said another way of putting 07:48 is Islam needs a reformation. 07:50 It really hasn't moved not so much with the time 07:54 but it hasn't moved to adjust itself to the times. 07:58 But in dealing with the world as it is as a statesman should, 08:01 you have to recognize the influence of religion, 08:03 an American politicians and statesmen 08:06 and diplomats have been slow to do that. 08:08 We've made horrible mistakes in our foreign policy 08:10 because we haven't understood 08:12 the classic example is not knowing 08:13 the difference Shia and Sunni, 08:16 when we're going into Iraq the country 08:17 you most need to know the distinction. 08:20 So my point is not to beat us 08:22 because of our religious ignorance, 08:23 our point is to say we're not living in a world 08:25 which is less religiously infused and influenced. 08:28 It's more so and it's more diverse, 08:30 so we've got to know these things, 08:32 and we got to ask them of our presidential candidates. 08:34 Now, a lot of what's going on, gone on lately in US politics 08:39 and even during the presidential campaign 08:41 with sort of a constant, 08:43 it's sort of divvying it up into religious voting blocks 08:47 and that troubles me. 08:48 How do you figure that in on asking searching questions 08:52 about the candidates but is it healthy that 08:55 we allow certain groups to play religious groups 08:58 for political gangs... 08:59 No, that's part of the lack of sophistication 09:02 of these religious groups. 09:04 One of the interesting conundrums is the black church 09:06 was as conservative in all matters except politics 09:09 and leans leftward in American politics. 09:13 Evangelicals have allowed themselves 09:14 to be played as well 09:15 and I think in the current election 09:17 we're saying a real fraying of what used to be called 09:19 the monolithic religious right. 09:20 So I think they are allowing themselves to be played 09:23 but as they get more sophisticated 09:25 as we breakout more of their individual beliefs 09:29 and have more varieties of representation 09:31 in American politics, 09:33 I think we'll less of that, 09:34 but this is part and parcel of just our ignorance, 09:37 our lack of dialog, our lack of discussion, 09:39 our lack of hearing of these issues. 09:41 Now, back to this current presidential campaign 09:45 which as we speak is coming to its end 09:47 and perhaps when the show is over 09:51 but we can still discuss the overall dynamic. 09:54 Do you think religion was more prominent 09:56 or less prominent than some of the recent campaigns, 10:00 what was its wrong? 10:01 More prominent. More prominent. 10:03 I agree with you but why because it wasn't self evident. 10:06 No, it wasn't self evident 10:07 but you have to watch it careful. 10:08 Consider for example that every Republican person 10:14 running for office was openly and loudly faith based. 10:18 People said in primary debates. 10:20 I'll do the will of Jesus Christ in office. 10:22 Everybody on the right was... 10:23 Except Trump, blatantly, I mean he is now... 10:27 He sort of came to it because he realized he had to. 10:29 But then that makes the question 10:31 if they were all so openly 10:35 in favor of the religious agenda 10:37 and ally with some of its objectives. 10:40 Why were they also easily rejected? 10:42 Well, for other reasons, horrible campaigning, 10:44 horrible presentation... 10:45 Okay, it's the question worth asking though. 10:47 Yeah it is, I'm not sure that 10:49 the American people want their presidential nominee 10:52 to suddenly in the middle of a debate go 10:54 and I'll do the will of Jesus Christ in office, 10:57 halleluiah and break into, you know, 10:59 when Mr. Cruz won Iowa and step to the podium. 11:03 He stood up and said, well, 11:04 let's just all give praise to God. 11:06 Now, I'm not mocking 11:09 but that's what you do in church, 11:11 that's not what you do after winning Iowa, 11:13 and then he thanked the people of Iowa 11:14 for allowing his father to speak in Iowa churches. 11:17 In other words, the way faith was handled, 11:20 I think ended up being a negative 11:21 for most of the guys on the right 11:22 and the survey showed that. 11:24 And Hillary too was... 11:26 In fact, am I wrong but didn't, 11:27 was she speaking at one church were they 11:30 started divertly become political 11:32 and she reigned in a bit. 11:33 Yes, she knew it was gonna get criticized from the press 11:35 but I take a little bit of heat for saying 11:37 that Hillary Clinton is one of the most 11:39 faith based politicians of our generation. 11:41 And the fact is it's just not traditional 11:43 conservative Christianity. 11:45 She and Barack Obama are very much on the same page, 11:47 very left leaning, very social justice oriented, 11:50 liberal Protestants. 11:52 From the early stages I can remember 11:53 she always said that her Methodist upbringing 11:57 had a big part to setting around her political course. 12:00 The problem with Hillary Clinton religiously now, 12:02 I'm not playing politics with you 12:03 but the problem that she has religiously is that 12:05 she has reversed herself so many times. 12:07 Her husband signs dogma 12:09 the Defense of Marriage Act into law, 12:10 she goes out on the circuit 12:12 and defense it with scripture notations 12:13 and then reverses herself. 12:15 Reverses herself on gay marriage, 12:16 reverses herself on abortion. 12:18 That single issue seems to have become the most divisive one, 12:20 and it's interesting because the for want of a better word 12:23 the religious right or the moral majority 12:26 really truly came into power 12:29 or political influence with the anti-abortion issue 12:34 which always troubled me a little bit 12:36 because it seems while I object 12:39 to abortion greatly from biblical ground, 12:42 but I do believe that 12:45 the origin of this was the Roman Catholic 12:48 particular doctrine on the immortal soul and... 12:55 original sin. 12:57 So in becoming so hung up on abortion 13:01 there was a risk that American Protestantism 13:03 sort of lost itself doctrinally. 13:05 Right. Right. 13:06 Yeah, and I think when it comes to the Right's presentation 13:10 religiously or the Religious Right more majority, 13:13 they became single issue, 13:14 people rather than understanding 13:16 the full of a biblical worldview 13:19 or being consistent on other matters for example 13:22 I'm unapologetically pro-life, 13:24 at the same time 13:26 I also think that we have to be contending 13:27 for care for the poor. 13:29 That's really was my next... 13:30 You can't read the prophets, you can't read the Bible, 13:33 in fact if you only read 13:34 the first five or six chapter of every gospel, 13:37 you begin to wonder if they are rich 13:38 or condemned by God you know. 13:40 And I'm not trying to play with scripture here, 13:41 I'm just saying, let's be fully orbed 13:44 in our presentation and not just single issue. 13:46 And that's her and so you're the saying 13:48 the fraying of what used to be the Religious Right 13:50 in the last two elections. 13:52 They're used to be that 13:53 of Jerry Falwell lost to Canada, 13:55 80 percent of evangelicals went that way no longer. 13:58 We need to take a break but after the break, 13:59 I want to ask you think about 14:02 did Jerry Falwell's passing having anything to do 14:05 with the obvious shift in the whole identity 14:08 and approach of the Religious Right. 14:09 We will be taking this break. 14:11 We're back shortly, stay with us. |
Revised 2016-11-17