Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program bringing you
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news, views, information
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and really an
up-to-date analysis
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of religious liberty issues
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on the
program Dr. Stephen Mansfield,
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best selling author, lecturer,
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sort of man of
letters generally.
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Thank you.
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And it's my privilege to have
you on the program, Stephen,
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and in particular he
is a little ad of sorts.
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We've just, as we're
recording this printed our issue
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that has an article about you
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on the US
election but in some ways,
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it's a recapitulation
of some of your material
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in your latest book, isn't it?
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Yes, it is.
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What is that, Ask the Question?
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Ask the Question,
and the subtitle is
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Why We Must
Demand Religious Clarity
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from Our
Presidential Candidates?
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And I'll ask you
that question, why?
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Did we demand religious
clarity from our candidates
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because as you
yourself say in the...
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or in the blurb of the book,
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in others the no religious
test for public office...
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Right.
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But should we test those
that we vote for in essence.
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Well, the constitution
does ban religious test
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but the
founding fathers intended
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that the people would
pay attention to religion.
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The fact is that
almost all of our candidates
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are influenced in
some way by religion,
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but because we don't
have an open hearing,
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because the
press doesn't often do
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a good job with religion,
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we are not asking
the right questions.
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We're surprised
little bit later,
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we were surprised by
faith and its influence
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in Barack
Obama's administration.
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We are now looking
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at a campaign
with Hillary Clinton,
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perhaps the most faith based
politician of our generation.
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Everybody on the right,
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everybody on the
conservative side
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was faith based and openly so.
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And so religion is very
much shaping our politics
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despite the fact that
our, the mood in our academies,
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the mood on the
campuses are sort of,
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oh, religion is passing away.
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Nothing could be
further from the truth.
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That's true, I agree with you,
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and the US more than
most western societies is...
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Well, I'm about to
say deeply religious
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but I often
myself write about this,
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I make a distinction
between religious identity
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and beliefs and religious faith.
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I don't think
American society is nearly
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as faith based as it
once was or spiritual,
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but the religious identity
in the US is stronger than
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most any western
country in my judgment.
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No question.
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The way I like to say it is
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that if a
candidate's faith is sincere,
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it's the most
important thing about them,
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and it will shape
what they do in office.
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And if we don't know
what that is in advance
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put it in a humorous terms,
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it's like me running
for president saying,
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now there is a guy
over here name Bob,
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and he's gonna
influence everything I do.
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But I'm not gonna
tell you about him
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until I'm actually elected.
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Yeah.
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People would laugh at me if
I said that but we'll allow,
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we'll vote for a candidate
who has a profound faith life
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of one kind to another
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to enter office and we
have no idea what that faith is.
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Well, let me take you back a bit
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'cause I'm sure you
have written about this
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Mitt Romney running twice,
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ran into a barrage of opposition
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from other people of faith
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because of his particular faith.
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So, you know,
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that was
objectionable for some people
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that he had a deep faith.
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Was that correct to cry foul
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because it's an unpopular or
a non mainline religious faith.
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Well, I think people
were right to ask questions.
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There's no question that
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that people don't
understand Mormonism,
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survey show that
majority of Americans
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thinks that Mormonism is a cult.
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I admit Romney
should have know, this.
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I put this on him a
little bit, I mean I like,
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and in fact in
one of the chapters
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in my book is
called the three words
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because when Mitt Romney
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gave his
convention acceptance speech,
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he motioned his
Mormonism in three words,
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we were Mormon.
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And he was
resentful of the topic
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being brought up
at any other time.
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Now, I'm not in anyway
anti-Mormon in some raging way
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but I have to
say at the same time,
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you're talking about a man
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who was as close
to Mormons clergy
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as the Mormons have at a time
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when blacks were
kept from the priesthood.
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There are still
questions about women so
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if you're going to run in an
American democracy for office
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and you are part of a faith
that raises these questions,
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you have to really answer them.
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He didn't like answering them
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and then he
handled in three words
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and the survey
show that it affected
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the outcome of the election.
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Oh, I'm quite
certain and Liberty ran
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a few articles on that.
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We actually defended
not his particular beliefs
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but we defended him
against these hominine attacks
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because of religion.
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But you were very right
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that you can't distance an
individual from their religion
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and their
philosophical worldview,
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and religion is the ultimate
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philosophical
identity, isn't it?
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Well, and also staying
with the case of Mormonism.
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The fact is there's the
great deal about Mormonism
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to commend it as the
faith of our president.
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Again I'm not Mormon,
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and I'm not an
advocate for Mormonism
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but it's patriotism, I
mean, in sense of morals ethics,
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even if we disagree with
some of the supernatural claims
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just at a practical civic level,
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there is a lot to commend it.
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So but we're having
more of an erring right now
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than ever was so
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when he was
running for president.
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I know. I know.
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Well, and I like to think
this program talks respectfully,
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they were about some of
the untouchables aspects...
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Good, thank you for doing it.
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And like I had Muslims
on here on this program
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and we've spoken
very openly about
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some of the
closeted aspects of Islam
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which I think need to be
discussed not pejoratively
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but just openly and debate
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what effect this
could have on the voting.
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We need more shows like this.
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This is the kind of dialog
that's not happening elsewhere,
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most of the press is
pretty poor about it.
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Most of the press
deals with religious
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though it's an oddity,
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as though it's a vote
on your note, you know.
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Well, this is what I
was gonna say before,
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I think you agree with me.
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We're running blind
more and more in the US,
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and certainly in Australia
but I come from an England
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because they're
even more so than the US
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where the media I
think are naturally
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not so much
prejudice against religion,
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they're of a secular mindset
where it doesn't compute.
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Right, right.
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Seen as an aberration retrograde
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sort of social
thinking and so they turn deaf
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on what it really means
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other than sort
of religious identity
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like twig on
religious identity politics
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but not on its deeper meanings.
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Well, I track this in the book
to the influence of a man named
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Herman Auguste Comte
and Comte would taught
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that man would
eventually outgrow religion
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and would live
in a positive state,
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he was the...
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Oh, Christopher
Hitchens was on that one.
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Oh yes, absolutely, absolutely.
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But it simply isn't true,
Comte was wrong about this,
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he is the father
of modern sociology
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and so he gave us many gifts,
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but the idea that man
would outgrow religion
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has influenced our academies,
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has influenced our universities,
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that's why you can
go clear your doctorate
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and never have had a
class on world religions
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but the fact is the world
is more religiously contentious
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and more openly religious
than maybe any time in history.
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Now, I started
Christopher Hitchens
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because he is more
recent and he did say
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this is a
phenomenon of our infancy.
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Yes.
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So he was
always pushing the idea
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that we should
grow up and get better.
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Right and he is
just wrong about that.
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I think he is wrong about it,
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where he is half
right is a lot of religious,
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nativist religious
thought is of that,
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oh my superstition
and like this with Islam,
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it's often been said
another way of putting
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is Islam needs a reformation.
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It really hasn't moved
not so much with the time
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but it hasn't moved to
adjust itself to the times.
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But in dealing with the world
as it is as a statesman should,
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you have to recognize
the influence of religion,
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an American
politicians and statesmen
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and diplomats have
been slow to do that.
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We've made horrible
mistakes in our foreign policy
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because we haven't understood
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the classic
example is not knowing
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the difference Shia and Sunni,
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when we're going
into Iraq the country
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you most need to
know the distinction.
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So my point is not to beat us
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because of our
religious ignorance,
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our point is to say
we're not living in a world
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which is less religiously
infused and influenced.
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It's more so and
it's more diverse,
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so we've got to
know these things,
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and we got to ask them of
our presidential candidates.
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Now, a lot of what's going on,
gone on lately in US politics
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and even during the
presidential campaign
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with sort of a constant,
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it's sort of divvying it up
into religious voting blocks
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and that troubles me.
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How do you figure that in
on asking searching questions
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about the candidates
but is it healthy that
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we allow certain groups
to play religious groups
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for political gangs...
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No, that's part of
the lack of sophistication
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of these religious groups.
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One of the interesting
conundrums is the black church
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was as conservative in
all matters except politics
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and leans leftward
in American politics.
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Evangelicals have
allowed themselves
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to be played as well
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and I think in
the current election
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we're saying a real fraying
of what used to be called
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the monolithic religious right.
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So I think they are
allowing themselves to be played
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but as they get
more sophisticated
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as we breakout more of
their individual beliefs
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and have more
varieties of representation
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in American politics,
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I think we'll less of that,
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but this is part and
parcel of just our ignorance,
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our lack of dialog,
our lack of discussion,
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our lack of
hearing of these issues.
00:09:39.47\00:09:41.14
Now, back to this
current presidential campaign
00:09:41.18\00:09:45.51
which as we speak
is coming to its end
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and perhaps
when the show is over
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but we can still
discuss the overall dynamic.
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Do you think
religion was more prominent
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or less prominent than
some of the recent campaigns,
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what was its wrong?
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More prominent. More prominent.
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I agree with you but why
because it wasn't self evident.
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No, it wasn't self evident
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but you have to
watch it careful.
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Consider for example
that every Republican person
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running for office was
openly and loudly faith based.
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People said in primary debates.
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I'll do the will of
Jesus Christ in office.
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Everybody on the right was...
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Except Trump,
blatantly, I mean he is now...
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He sort of came to it
because he realized he had to.
00:10:27.69\00:10:29.92
But then that makes the question
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if they were all so openly
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in favor of the religious agenda
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and ally with
some of its objectives.
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Why were they
also easily rejected?
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Well, for other
reasons, horrible campaigning,
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horrible presentation...
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Okay, it's the
question worth asking though.
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Yeah it is, I'm not sure that
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the American people want
their presidential nominee
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to suddenly in the
middle of a debate go
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and I'll do the will
of Jesus Christ in office,
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halleluiah and
break into, you know,
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when Mr. Cruz won Iowa
and step to the podium.
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He stood up and said, well,
00:11:03.49\00:11:04.83
let's just all
give praise to God.
00:11:04.86\00:11:06.26
Now, I'm not mocking
00:11:06.29\00:11:09.46
but that's what
you do in church,
00:11:09.50\00:11:10.97
that's not what you
do after winning Iowa,
00:11:11.00\00:11:13.07
and then he
thanked the people of Iowa
00:11:13.10\00:11:14.50
for allowing his father
to speak in Iowa churches.
00:11:14.54\00:11:17.77
In other words, the
way faith was handled,
00:11:17.81\00:11:20.18
I think ended
up being a negative
00:11:20.21\00:11:21.54
for most of the
guys on the right
00:11:21.58\00:11:22.91
and the survey showed that.
00:11:22.94\00:11:24.28
And Hillary too was...
00:11:24.31\00:11:26.18
In fact, am I wrong but didn't,
00:11:26.21\00:11:27.85
was she speaking at
one church were they
00:11:27.88\00:11:29.98
started
divertly become political
00:11:30.02\00:11:32.05
and she reigned in a bit.
00:11:32.09\00:11:33.42
Yes, she knew it was gonna
get criticized from the press
00:11:33.46\00:11:35.62
but I take a little
bit of heat for saying
00:11:35.66\00:11:37.69
that Hillary
Clinton is one of the most
00:11:37.73\00:11:39.06
faith based
politicians of our generation.
00:11:39.09\00:11:40.96
And the fact is
it's just not traditional
00:11:41.00\00:11:43.63
conservative Christianity.
00:11:43.67\00:11:45.00
She and Barack Obama are
very much on the same page,
00:11:45.03\00:11:47.30
very left leaning, very
social justice oriented,
00:11:47.34\00:11:50.77
liberal Protestants.
00:11:50.81\00:11:52.14
From the early
stages I can remember
00:11:52.17\00:11:53.61
she always said that
her Methodist upbringing
00:11:53.64\00:11:57.25
had a big part to setting
around her political course.
00:11:57.28\00:12:00.25
The problem with
Hillary Clinton religiously now,
00:12:00.28\00:12:02.22
I'm not playing
politics with you
00:12:02.25\00:12:03.69
but the problem that
she has religiously is that
00:12:03.72\00:12:05.69
she has reversed
herself so many times.
00:12:05.72\00:12:07.59
Her husband signs dogma
00:12:07.62\00:12:09.02
the Defense of
Marriage Act into law,
00:12:09.06\00:12:10.89
she goes out on the circuit
00:12:10.93\00:12:12.26
and defense it
with scripture notations
00:12:12.29\00:12:13.86
and then reverses herself.
00:12:13.90\00:12:15.23
Reverses
herself on gay marriage,
00:12:15.26\00:12:16.60
reverses herself on abortion.
00:12:16.63\00:12:17.97
That single issue seems to have
become the most divisive one,
00:12:18.00\00:12:20.64
and it's interesting because
the for want of a better word
00:12:20.67\00:12:23.71
the religious right
or the moral majority
00:12:23.74\00:12:26.44
really truly came into power
00:12:26.47\00:12:29.94
or political influence
with the anti-abortion issue
00:12:29.98\00:12:34.38
which always
troubled me a little bit
00:12:34.42\00:12:35.98
because it seems while I object
00:12:36.02\00:12:39.22
to abortion greatly
from biblical ground,
00:12:39.25\00:12:42.29
but I do believe that
00:12:42.32\00:12:45.09
the origin of this
was the Roman Catholic
00:12:45.13\00:12:48.80
particular doctrine on
the immortal soul and...
00:12:48.83\00:12:51.67
original sin.
00:12:55.94\00:12:57.87
So in becoming so
hung up on abortion
00:12:57.91\00:13:01.24
there was a risk that
American Protestantism
00:13:01.28\00:13:03.91
sort of lost itself doctrinally.
00:13:03.95\00:13:05.41
Right. Right.
00:13:05.45\00:13:06.85
Yeah, and I think when it comes
to the Right's presentation
00:13:06.88\00:13:09.98
religiously or the
Religious Right more majority,
00:13:10.02\00:13:13.05
they became single issue,
00:13:13.09\00:13:14.79
people rather than understanding
00:13:14.82\00:13:16.83
the full of a biblical worldview
00:13:16.86\00:13:19.13
or being consistent on
other matters for example
00:13:19.16\00:13:22.13
I'm unapologetically pro-life,
00:13:22.16\00:13:24.67
at the same time
00:13:24.70\00:13:26.03
I also think that we
have to be contending
00:13:26.07\00:13:27.60
for care for the poor.
00:13:27.64\00:13:29.17
That's really was my next...
00:13:29.20\00:13:30.54
You can't read the prophets,
you can't read the Bible,
00:13:30.57\00:13:33.38
in fact if you only read
00:13:33.41\00:13:34.94
the first five or six
chapter of every gospel,
00:13:34.98\00:13:37.08
you begin to
wonder if they are rich
00:13:37.11\00:13:38.45
or condemned by God you know.
00:13:38.48\00:13:40.15
And I'm not trying to
play with scripture here,
00:13:40.18\00:13:41.75
I'm just saying,
let's be fully orbed
00:13:41.78\00:13:44.29
in our presentation
and not just single issue.
00:13:44.32\00:13:46.76
And that's her and
so you're the saying
00:13:46.79\00:13:48.76
the fraying of what used
to be the Religious Right
00:13:48.79\00:13:50.86
in the last two elections.
00:13:50.89\00:13:52.49
They're used to be that
00:13:52.53\00:13:53.86
of Jerry Falwell lost to Canada,
00:13:53.90\00:13:55.76
80 percent of evangelicals
went that way no longer.
00:13:55.80\00:13:58.13
We need to take a
break but after the break,
00:13:58.17\00:13:59.87
I want to ask you think about
00:13:59.90\00:14:02.84
did Jerry Falwell's
passing having anything to do
00:14:02.87\00:14:05.47
with the obvious
shift in the whole identity
00:14:05.51\00:14:08.24
and approach of
the Religious Right.
00:14:08.28\00:14:09.81
We will be taking this break.
00:14:09.84\00:14:11.18
We're back
shortly, stay with us.
00:14:11.21\00:14:12.55