Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Andy Im
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000338B
|
00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break, we were doing what we often do, 00:12 analyzing religious liberty 00:15 and people's attitudes toward it with guest Andy. 00:22 Maybe you don't like the analytical approach here, 00:25 but, you know, how do we get to the root of it. 00:28 Off camera we were talking about 00:30 how even some of our own 00:31 church members, without thinking 00:34 sort of have a reflexly right-wing viewpoint, well, 00:38 right and left wing have every right to exist, 00:41 but if someone without even thinking it through 00:44 just sort of has 00:47 a bias one way and then an axe on that bias, 00:50 that's quite dangerous. 00:53 In fact, 00:55 I've studied US history and it seems to me, 00:57 back in the '30s, there was the Know-Nothing Party, 01:01 aptly named. 01:03 Yes. 01:04 And if coming up to a presidential election, 01:07 and maybe as harmless as shown, 01:09 but you know if someone votes 01:12 Republican just because 01:14 they are Republican, regardless of 01:16 what the candidate says or the party stands for. 01:19 I mean, there's the way to tyranny, 01:20 there's the way to all sorts of abuses. 01:24 You want thinking men and women. 01:26 And if thinking men and women vote in a government 01:30 that's not to my liking, well, it's fine, 01:33 but I can't structurally object to the system. 01:39 But I don't even have to think long to know that 01:43 we have a huge problem with people blindly, 01:46 because of an inbuilt bias, 01:48 go for this movement or that movement, 01:50 you know, we're headed for great trouble. 01:52 And religious liberty shouldn't be the play thing 01:55 of this sort of bias. 01:56 Absolutely, I do believe that 01:59 there is the possibility of a healthy patriotism 02:02 where you appreciate the values of a nation. 02:06 I do believe that in our country, 02:09 the United States, we are seeing a shift 02:12 from healthy patriotism to nationalistic tendencies 02:19 that is also coupled with Christianity. 02:23 And so what it means to be American today, 02:26 used to be, they have this expression WASP, 02:29 you know White Anglo-Saxon Protestant 02:31 American kind of thing. 02:33 And now it's, you're only American 02:36 if you believe this way about, 02:38 for example, gun rights. 02:39 You're only American if you, 02:42 you know, have a flag 02:45 outside your house, that kind of thing. 02:48 And I think it gets very dangerous 02:50 when we start mixing Christianity, 02:54 the pure form of Christianity 02:56 and making it a political slogan. 03:00 Well, we've been there before... 03:01 Yes. 03:02 This might be one area that 03:04 I have a few extra years over you... 03:06 Yes. 03:08 Informs me a bit more, 03:09 but during the Cold War at its height, 03:15 the US exemplified all that you said 03:17 we might become... 03:18 we were. 03:19 And I do believe that a candidate, 03:22 one of the candidates' slogans, 03:24 "Make America great again." 03:25 Is sort of code for "Take us back to those days." 03:30 And even in religious liberty, 03:33 we're still fighting one battle that dates from then 03:36 when in an effort to portray this as a Christian nation, 03:40 structurally, governmentally, societaly and every front, 03:45 we counter pointed that against godless communism. 03:50 And during that period, 03:51 the Ten Commandments were placed 03:52 in all sorts of public buildings 03:55 and memorials and so on. 03:57 Ten Commandments are great. 03:58 You know, I wish more people lived them. 04:01 But for the government to be doing that was just so wrong. 04:04 But it was all done with the flag waving patriotism, 04:06 "This is God's country," 04:08 you know, "We're a sacred nation," 04:10 left overs of that now are 04:12 what you do read in the media. 04:14 You know, "We never apologize for America." 04:16 Why is that? 04:18 It's because 04:20 we all know that human beings are fallible 04:22 but when you have, "This is God's country," 04:24 God doesn't make mistakes. 04:28 By definition, we're the agents of God. 04:30 So you don't apologize for America. 04:32 But I was very gratified 04:34 just a few hours ago now to hear 04:39 President Obama in Laos. 04:42 Not in a groveling sense but acknowledging 04:46 the horrors of war that the US visited on Laos 04:51 during the Vietnam War. 04:53 That's right. 04:54 I'm sure, he'll get into trouble for it, 04:56 but he's a lone duck, so... 04:57 Yes. 04:58 You know, nothing to pay. 05:00 Well, I think it's always dangerous when we, 05:02 on the basis of a nation, 05:04 we have feelings of superiority 05:06 over other countries and nations. 05:09 I think of the example of Paul in Philippians 3, 05:13 where he said, he lists all the things 05:15 that he should be proud about, national heritage, 05:20 the religious sect he belonged to, 05:22 etcetera, etcetera. 05:23 And he goes on to conclude that he counts those things as dung 05:28 so that he may win Christ. 05:30 And what the Bible teaches is 05:35 a servant based leadership, 05:39 not a dictatorial authoritarian type of leadership. 05:42 Yes. 05:44 This is a good time, since we're talking publicly, 05:46 many people are listening on this conversation. 05:50 You know, a Christian and indeed 05:53 anyone of any other faith should follow this model, 05:55 but I can only speak authoritatively 05:58 from my faith, and its holy books, 06:01 and the relationship to God, 06:02 but a Christian is never called 06:04 to be disloyal to the country. 06:06 A Christian should be exemplary citizen. 06:10 Exactly. 06:11 But our highest loyalty is to God. 06:13 That's right. 06:15 But that doesn't mean that that pulls us away from the state. 06:18 If a state is pulled against it, 06:21 is wielding the sword, which just means power. 06:24 Yeah. 06:26 Correctly. 06:27 Then it's worthy of full support 06:29 and loyalty and we will be unwavering in that regard. 06:33 But if the state moves against 06:37 our faith, integrity, in that regard, 06:41 we'll challenge it, but that's no secret. 06:44 That's right. 06:45 I mean and we're loyal to the state 06:47 on the basis of scripture itself. 06:49 And you alluded to the passage that Paul refers to. 06:54 But I believe that patriotism, 06:57 which is a fairly modern invention 07:01 in some ways 07:04 either has religion mixed with it 07:07 or has tried to create its own sort of religion. 07:10 We've got an article coming up in Liberty 07:16 that analyzes North Korea 07:21 in your ancestral neighborhood... 07:24 Yes, yes. 07:25 And I think the word is Juche, isn't it? 07:29 They have a state religion 07:30 where they've structured the worshippers' estate, 07:34 self-consciously as a religious model. 07:39 And so I think the US patriotism 07:42 always had that element 07:43 that it was statism, but with religiosity. 07:48 But when you go further back, 07:50 the patriotism, as we know it, didn't exist. 07:53 It was loyalty to the clan or the people. 07:55 And then as time went on, to their religion 07:59 and that's why you get how Russia, 08:01 the Rus, when they converted to Christianity, 08:04 Vladimir converted. 08:05 They were all Christian 08:07 because that was the unified people group on religion. 08:11 But patriotism now, what is it? 08:15 You know I used to hear the songs, 08:17 America's the beautiful, you know, 08:19 fruited plains and all the rest. 08:21 Is it just love of country? 08:25 I don't think it's that simple. 08:28 The best of times patriotism plays footsie with religion... 08:32 I think and that can be dangerous. 08:35 But loyalty to those who are acting in God's stead 08:40 in positions of authority, that should come with being 08:43 an observant Christian or a person of deep faith. 08:47 You respect authority, you respect law and order, 08:50 you respect the public trust that's placed in those people. 08:55 So it doesn't take away from your citizenship 08:58 obligations at all, it adds to them. 09:00 That's right. 09:02 And I do believe that now 09:05 more than ever before, we need to, 09:08 for example, in the book of Hebrews, 09:10 it describes Christians as pilgrims 09:13 and strangers on this earth. 09:16 Our truth in ultimate citizenship 09:19 is not one of any nation, 09:22 but it's the heavenly citizenship. 09:24 Absolutely. 09:26 And our passport is stamped with the blood of Jesus. 09:28 Very good. 09:30 Yeah, your pastoral background is shining through. 09:33 That's right. But it's true. 09:35 And the time is running away 09:37 but, you know, I could wax eloquent 09:40 one of my favorite books, Pilgrim's Progress. 09:42 It picked up of course in the British Puritan context. 09:47 There's this wonderful imagery that Paul started. 09:50 We're all pilgrims, living here in this earth, 09:54 leaving the city of destruction, 09:55 and on our way to a grand and wonderful place. 09:59 But we have to live here now 10:01 and reflect that celestial city 10:05 even in whatever city we live in. 10:08 That's right. 10:09 I believe that now, 10:12 perhaps even more than ever before, 10:15 we need to identify ourselves 10:18 increasingly more with the heavenly kingdom. 10:22 Jesus is soon to return. 10:26 And I believe it does us hurt, 10:30 it hurts our cause, 10:31 the cause of Christianity in spreading the Gospel 10:34 when we identify it with any nation or country. 10:39 I think we need to detach it from all 10:42 social or political constructs 10:45 and really promulgate the Gospel of Jesus Christ 10:50 to every nation, kindred tongue, and people 10:54 so that people can accept the message 10:57 without any obstacles that would hinder it 11:00 from going out. 11:03 France was once known for religious tolerance. 11:07 They had a law of tolerance. 11:11 Unfortunately, it came to an end 11:13 with the Saint Bartholomew's Day massacre. 11:17 Because in reality, tolerance is nothing 11:20 but an allowance of what I strongly dislike 11:23 until I've decided that I've had enough. 11:27 That's the worst way to describe religious liberty. 11:31 And yet so often, it's what passes for religious liberty. 11:36 We must allow people to have 11:41 religious viewpoints and religious practice 11:43 that we might find personally abhorrent, 11:47 but we allow it not because 11:49 we're going to be kind and charitable, 11:51 but because the principle of religious freedom, 11:54 the principle of us all being common 11:57 creatures of a Creator God, means that we must allow them 12:02 what we ourselves want and not do it under duress 12:06 but do it gladly because this is our place under 12:11 heaven and under God. 12:13 Tolerance cannot be religious liberty 12:16 and if I've become more 12:19 relevant to what's happening in the United States now, 12:22 religious entitlement a narrow entitlement, 12:26 while it might help me and my group 12:29 is not also anything to do 12:32 with religious liberty, it's anti-religious. 12:38 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2016-10-31