Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:00:05.23\00:00:07.90
Before the break, we
were doing what we often do,
00:00:07.94\00:00:12.07
analyzing religious liberty
00:00:12.11\00:00:15.04
and people's attitudes
toward it with guest Andy.
00:00:15.08\00:00:18.68
Maybe you don't like the
analytical approach here,
00:00:22.48\00:00:25.52
but, you know, how do
we get to the root of it.
00:00:25.55\00:00:28.62
Off camera we were talking about
00:00:28.66\00:00:30.03
how even some of our own
00:00:30.06\00:00:31.76
church members, without thinking
00:00:31.79\00:00:34.30
sort of have a reflexly
right-wing viewpoint, well,
00:00:34.33\00:00:38.87
right and left wing
have every right to exist,
00:00:38.90\00:00:41.60
but if someone without
even thinking it through
00:00:41.64\00:00:44.04
just sort of has
00:00:44.07\00:00:47.48
a bias one way and
then an axe on that bias,
00:00:47.51\00:00:50.55
that's quite dangerous.
00:00:50.58\00:00:53.92
In fact,
00:00:53.95\00:00:55.28
I've studied US
history and it seems to me,
00:00:55.32\00:00:57.45
back in the '30s, there
was the Know-Nothing Party,
00:00:57.49\00:00:59.85
aptly named.
00:01:01.72\00:01:03.26
Yes.
00:01:03.29\00:01:04.63
And if coming up to a
presidential election,
00:01:04.66\00:01:07.76
and maybe as harmless as shown,
00:01:07.80\00:01:09.70
but you know if someone votes
00:01:09.73\00:01:12.03
Republican just because
00:01:12.07\00:01:14.47
they are
Republican, regardless of
00:01:14.50\00:01:16.40
what the candidate says
or the party stands for.
00:01:16.44\00:01:18.67
I mean, there's
the way to tyranny,
00:01:19.01\00:01:20.61
there's the way to
all sorts of abuses.
00:01:20.64\00:01:24.21
You want thinking men and women.
00:01:24.25\00:01:26.48
And if thinking men and
women vote in a government
00:01:26.51\00:01:30.45
that's not to my
liking, well, it's fine,
00:01:30.49\00:01:33.52
but I can't structurally
object to the system.
00:01:33.56\00:01:39.49
But I don't even have
to think long to know that
00:01:39.53\00:01:43.00
we have a huge
problem with people blindly,
00:01:43.03\00:01:45.97
because of an inbuilt bias,
00:01:46.00\00:01:48.30
go for this
movement or that movement,
00:01:48.34\00:01:50.47
you know, we're
headed for great trouble.
00:01:50.51\00:01:52.44
And religious liberty
shouldn't be the play thing
00:01:52.47\00:01:55.04
of this sort of bias.
00:01:55.08\00:01:56.75
Absolutely, I do believe that
00:01:56.78\00:01:59.05
there is the possibility
of a healthy patriotism
00:01:59.08\00:02:02.85
where you appreciate
the values of a nation.
00:02:02.88\00:02:06.86
I do believe
that in our country,
00:02:06.89\00:02:09.66
the United States,
we are seeing a shift
00:02:09.69\00:02:12.56
from healthy patriotism
to nationalistic tendencies
00:02:12.59\00:02:19.13
that is also
coupled with Christianity.
00:02:19.17\00:02:23.07
And so what it means
to be American today,
00:02:23.10\00:02:26.24
used to be, they
have this expression WASP,
00:02:26.27\00:02:29.74
you know White
Anglo-Saxon Protestant
00:02:29.78\00:02:31.65
American kind of thing.
00:02:31.68\00:02:33.82
And now it's,
you're only American
00:02:33.85\00:02:36.22
if you believe this way about,
00:02:36.25\00:02:38.15
for example, gun rights.
00:02:38.19\00:02:39.79
You're only American if you,
00:02:39.82\00:02:42.42
you know, have a flag
00:02:42.46\00:02:45.76
outside your
house, that kind of thing.
00:02:45.79\00:02:48.23
And I think it
gets very dangerous
00:02:48.26\00:02:50.07
when we start
mixing Christianity,
00:02:50.10\00:02:54.00
the pure form of Christianity
00:02:54.04\00:02:56.87
and making it a
political slogan.
00:02:56.91\00:03:00.21
Well, we've been there before...
00:03:00.24\00:03:01.58
Yes.
00:03:01.61\00:03:02.94
This might be one area that
00:03:02.98\00:03:04.81
I have a few
extra years over you...
00:03:04.85\00:03:06.58
Yes.
00:03:06.61\00:03:08.55
Informs me a bit more,
00:03:08.58\00:03:09.92
but during the
Cold War at its height,
00:03:09.95\00:03:15.19
the US
exemplified all that you said
00:03:15.22\00:03:17.19
we might become...
00:03:17.23\00:03:18.56
we were.
00:03:18.59\00:03:19.93
And I do believe
that a candidate,
00:03:19.96\00:03:22.30
one of the candidates' slogans,
00:03:22.33\00:03:24.57
"Make America great again."
00:03:24.60\00:03:25.93
Is sort of code for
"Take us back to those days."
00:03:25.97\00:03:30.81
And even in religious liberty,
00:03:30.84\00:03:33.61
we're still fighting one
battle that dates from then
00:03:33.64\00:03:36.68
when in an effort to portray
this as a Christian nation,
00:03:36.71\00:03:40.52
structurally, governmentally,
societaly and every front,
00:03:40.55\00:03:45.75
we counter pointed that
against godless communism.
00:03:45.79\00:03:50.19
And during that period,
00:03:50.23\00:03:51.56
the Ten Commandments were placed
00:03:51.59\00:03:52.93
in all sorts of public buildings
00:03:52.96\00:03:55.16
and memorials and so on.
00:03:55.20\00:03:57.07
Ten Commandments are great.
00:03:57.10\00:03:58.43
You know, I wish
more people lived them.
00:03:58.47\00:04:01.30
But for the government to be
doing that was just so wrong.
00:04:01.34\00:04:04.17
But it was all done with
the flag waving patriotism,
00:04:04.21\00:04:06.78
"This is God's country,"
00:04:06.81\00:04:08.24
you know, "We're
a sacred nation,"
00:04:08.28\00:04:10.35
left overs of that now are
00:04:10.38\00:04:12.61
what you do read in the media.
00:04:12.65\00:04:14.65
You know, "We never
apologize for America."
00:04:14.68\00:04:16.72
Why is that?
00:04:16.75\00:04:18.09
It's because
00:04:18.12\00:04:20.49
we all know that
human beings are fallible
00:04:20.52\00:04:22.22
but when you have,
"This is God's country,"
00:04:22.26\00:04:24.79
God doesn't make mistakes.
00:04:24.83\00:04:27.96
By definition,
we're the agents of God.
00:04:28.00\00:04:30.07
So you don't
apologize for America.
00:04:30.10\00:04:32.03
But I was very gratified
00:04:32.07\00:04:34.64
just a few hours ago now to hear
00:04:34.67\00:04:39.21
President Obama in Laos.
00:04:39.24\00:04:42.08
Not in a groveling
sense but acknowledging
00:04:42.11\00:04:46.78
the horrors of war
that the US visited on Laos
00:04:46.82\00:04:51.32
during the Vietnam War.
00:04:51.45\00:04:53.09
That's right.
00:04:53.12\00:04:54.86
I'm sure, he'll get
into trouble for it,
00:04:54.89\00:04:56.22
but he's a lone duck, so...
00:04:56.26\00:04:57.59
Yes.
00:04:57.63\00:04:58.96
You know, nothing to pay.
00:04:58.99\00:05:00.33
Well, I think it's
always dangerous when we,
00:05:00.36\00:05:02.00
on the basis of a nation,
00:05:02.03\00:05:04.03
we have feelings of superiority
00:05:04.07\00:05:05.97
over other
countries and nations.
00:05:06.00\00:05:09.40
I think of the example
of Paul in Philippians 3,
00:05:09.44\00:05:13.21
where he said, he
lists all the things
00:05:13.24\00:05:15.78
that he should be proud
about, national heritage,
00:05:15.81\00:05:20.12
the religious
sect he belonged to,
00:05:20.15\00:05:21.98
etcetera, etcetera.
00:05:22.02\00:05:23.59
And he goes on to conclude that
he counts those things as dung
00:05:23.62\00:05:28.09
so that he may win Christ.
00:05:28.12\00:05:30.33
And what the Bible teaches is
00:05:30.36\00:05:35.00
a servant based leadership,
00:05:35.03\00:05:39.53
not a dictatorial authoritarian
type of leadership.
00:05:39.57\00:05:42.70
Yes.
00:05:42.74\00:05:44.07
This is a good time,
since we're talking publicly,
00:05:44.11\00:05:46.14
many people are
listening on this conversation.
00:05:46.17\00:05:50.75
You know, a Christian and indeed
00:05:50.78\00:05:53.15
anyone of any other
faith should follow this model,
00:05:53.18\00:05:55.72
but I can only
speak authoritatively
00:05:55.75\00:05:57.99
from my faith,
and its holy books,
00:05:58.02\00:06:01.02
and the relationship to God,
00:06:01.06\00:06:02.52
but a Christian is never called
00:06:02.56\00:06:04.73
to be disloyal to the country.
00:06:04.76\00:06:06.93
A Christian should
be exemplary citizen.
00:06:06.96\00:06:09.96
Exactly.
00:06:10.00\00:06:11.53
But our highest
loyalty is to God.
00:06:11.57\00:06:13.60
That's right.
00:06:13.64\00:06:14.97
But that doesn't mean that that
pulls us away from the state.
00:06:15.00\00:06:18.31
If a state is pulled against it,
00:06:18.34\00:06:21.44
is wielding the sword,
which just means power.
00:06:21.48\00:06:24.18
Yeah.
00:06:24.21\00:06:26.08
Correctly.
00:06:26.11\00:06:27.82
Then it's worthy of full support
00:06:27.85\00:06:29.82
and loyalty and we will
be unwavering in that regard.
00:06:29.85\00:06:33.32
But if the state moves against
00:06:33.36\00:06:37.19
our faith,
integrity, in that regard,
00:06:37.23\00:06:41.20
we'll challenge it,
but that's no secret.
00:06:41.23\00:06:44.17
That's right.
00:06:44.20\00:06:45.53
I mean and we're
loyal to the state
00:06:45.57\00:06:47.30
on the basis of
scripture itself.
00:06:47.34\00:06:49.50
And you alluded to the
passage that Paul refers to.
00:06:49.54\00:06:54.34
But I believe that patriotism,
00:06:54.38\00:06:57.28
which is a
fairly modern invention
00:06:57.31\00:07:01.18
in some ways
00:07:01.22\00:07:04.19
either has
religion mixed with it
00:07:04.22\00:07:07.46
or has tried to create
its own sort of religion.
00:07:07.49\00:07:10.86
We've got an
article coming up in Liberty
00:07:10.89\00:07:16.26
that analyzes North Korea
00:07:16.43\00:07:21.14
in your
ancestral neighborhood...
00:07:21.17\00:07:24.14
Yes, yes.
00:07:24.17\00:07:25.77
And I think the
word is Juche, isn't it?
00:07:25.81\00:07:29.44
They have a state religion
00:07:29.48\00:07:30.81
where they've structured
the worshippers' estate,
00:07:30.85\00:07:34.38
self-consciously
as a religious model.
00:07:34.42\00:07:39.72
And so I think the US patriotism
00:07:39.75\00:07:42.09
always had that element
00:07:42.12\00:07:43.83
that it was statism,
but with religiosity.
00:07:43.86\00:07:48.30
But when you go further back,
00:07:48.33\00:07:50.17
the patriotism, as we
know it, didn't exist.
00:07:50.20\00:07:53.07
It was loyalty to
the clan or the people.
00:07:53.10\00:07:55.90
And then as time
went on, to their religion
00:07:55.94\00:07:58.97
and that's why
you get how Russia,
00:07:59.01\00:08:01.41
the Rus, when they
converted to Christianity,
00:08:01.44\00:08:04.58
Vladimir converted.
00:08:04.61\00:08:05.95
They were all Christian
00:08:05.98\00:08:07.32
because that was the unified
people group on religion.
00:08:07.35\00:08:11.25
But patriotism now, what is it?
00:08:11.29\00:08:15.89
You know I used
to hear the songs,
00:08:15.92\00:08:17.49
America's the
beautiful, you know,
00:08:17.53\00:08:19.89
fruited plains and all the rest.
00:08:19.93\00:08:21.46
Is it just love of country?
00:08:21.50\00:08:25.63
I don't think it's that simple.
00:08:25.67\00:08:28.77
The best of times patriotism
plays footsie with religion...
00:08:28.80\00:08:32.47
I think and that
can be dangerous.
00:08:32.51\00:08:35.38
But loyalty to those who
are acting in God's stead
00:08:35.41\00:08:40.45
in positions of authority,
that should come with being
00:08:40.48\00:08:43.79
an observant Christian
or a person of deep faith.
00:08:43.82\00:08:46.99
You respect authority,
you respect law and order,
00:08:47.02\00:08:50.19
you respect the public trust
that's placed in those people.
00:08:50.23\00:08:55.16
So it doesn't take
away from your citizenship
00:08:55.20\00:08:58.40
obligations at
all, it adds to them.
00:08:58.43\00:09:00.27
That's right.
00:09:00.30\00:09:02.17
And I do believe that now
00:09:02.20\00:09:05.51
more than ever
before, we need to,
00:09:05.54\00:09:08.54
for example, in
the book of Hebrews,
00:09:08.58\00:09:10.41
it describes
Christians as pilgrims
00:09:10.45\00:09:13.85
and strangers on this earth.
00:09:13.88\00:09:16.35
Our truth in
ultimate citizenship
00:09:16.38\00:09:19.35
is not one of any nation,
00:09:19.39\00:09:21.99
but it's the
heavenly citizenship.
00:09:22.02\00:09:24.79
Absolutely.
00:09:24.83\00:09:26.16
And our passport is
stamped with the blood of Jesus.
00:09:26.19\00:09:28.73
Very good.
00:09:28.76\00:09:30.13
Yeah, your pastoral
background is shining through.
00:09:30.17\00:09:33.80
That's right. But it's true.
00:09:33.84\00:09:35.47
And the time is running away
00:09:35.50\00:09:37.67
but, you know, I
could wax eloquent
00:09:37.71\00:09:40.14
one of my favorite
books, Pilgrim's Progress.
00:09:40.18\00:09:42.94
It picked up of course in
the British Puritan context.
00:09:42.98\00:09:47.68
There's this wonderful
imagery that Paul started.
00:09:47.72\00:09:50.32
We're all pilgrims,
living here in this earth,
00:09:50.35\00:09:54.39
leaving the city of destruction,
00:09:54.42\00:09:55.86
and on our way to a
grand and wonderful place.
00:09:55.89\00:09:59.63
But we have to live here now
00:09:59.66\00:10:01.56
and reflect that celestial city
00:10:01.60\00:10:05.63
even in
whatever city we live in.
00:10:05.67\00:10:08.17
That's right.
00:10:08.20\00:10:09.57
I believe that now,
00:10:09.60\00:10:12.14
perhaps even
more than ever before,
00:10:12.17\00:10:15.34
we need to identify ourselves
00:10:15.38\00:10:18.41
increasingly more
with the heavenly kingdom.
00:10:18.45\00:10:22.78
Jesus is soon to return.
00:10:22.82\00:10:26.05
And I believe it does us hurt,
00:10:26.09\00:10:30.49
it hurts our cause,
00:10:30.53\00:10:31.86
the cause of Christianity
in spreading the Gospel
00:10:31.89\00:10:34.43
when we identify it
with any nation or country.
00:10:34.46\00:10:39.53
I think we need
to detach it from all
00:10:39.57\00:10:42.30
social or political constructs
00:10:42.34\00:10:45.81
and really promulgate
the Gospel of Jesus Christ
00:10:45.84\00:10:50.75
to every nation,
kindred tongue, and people
00:10:50.78\00:10:54.52
so that people
can accept the message
00:10:54.55\00:10:57.52
without any
obstacles that would hinder it
00:10:57.55\00:11:00.72
from going out.
00:11:00.76\00:11:03.09
France was once known
for religious tolerance.
00:11:03.12\00:11:07.60
They had a law of tolerance.
00:11:07.63\00:11:11.33
Unfortunately, it came to an end
00:11:11.37\00:11:13.27
with the Saint
Bartholomew's Day massacre.
00:11:13.30\00:11:17.64
Because in reality,
tolerance is nothing
00:11:17.67\00:11:20.31
but an allowance of
what I strongly dislike
00:11:20.34\00:11:23.95
until I've decided
that I've had enough.
00:11:23.98\00:11:27.35
That's the worst way to
describe religious liberty.
00:11:27.38\00:11:31.95
And yet so often, it's what
passes for religious liberty.
00:11:31.99\00:11:36.89
We must allow people to have
00:11:36.93\00:11:40.70
religious viewpoints
and religious practice
00:11:41.26\00:11:43.77
that we might find
personally abhorrent,
00:11:43.80\00:11:47.67
but we allow it not because
00:11:47.70\00:11:49.47
we're going to be
kind and charitable,
00:11:49.50\00:11:51.77
but because the
principle of religious freedom,
00:11:51.81\00:11:54.58
the principle of
us all being common
00:11:54.61\00:11:57.55
creatures of a Creator God,
means that we must allow them
00:11:57.58\00:12:02.45
what we ourselves want
and not do it under duress
00:12:02.48\00:12:06.72
but do it gladly
because this is our place under
00:12:06.76\00:12:10.99
heaven and under God.
00:12:11.03\00:12:13.13
Tolerance cannot
be religious liberty
00:12:13.16\00:12:16.26
and if I've become more
00:12:16.30\00:12:19.03
relevant to what's happening
in the United States now,
00:12:19.07\00:12:22.70
religious entitlement
a narrow entitlement,
00:12:22.74\00:12:26.74
while it might
help me and my group
00:12:26.78\00:12:29.54
is not also anything to do
00:12:29.58\00:12:32.71
with religious
liberty, it's anti-religious.
00:12:32.75\00:12:36.75
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:38.82\00:12:42.06