Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Andy Im
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000338A
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00:28 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:30 This is the program designed to get you thinking 00:34 about religious liberty issues in the U.S. 00:36 and around the world. 00:38 We deal with reviews, views and analysis. 00:41 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:45 and my guest on the program is Andy Im. 00:51 You've got it right. What does it mean? 00:52 Do you know the meaning of your name? 00:54 I don't, I don't. 00:56 I'm not really a good Korean if you will... 00:59 Is that your original family origin? 01:02 I am, yes, I can barely speak my language so... 01:05 Well, but we will try to avoid your language 01:08 since I barely speak it either. 01:10 Okay. That's good, that's good. 01:12 But for our viewer sake, you lead out in communications 01:17 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church 01:18 in the Michigan area, 01:20 and you're also a leader in campus ministries 01:23 for young people, 01:25 and I've already learned a good student 01:28 of current affairs and history and theology, 01:32 you're an ordained minister. 01:34 Let's talk about a lot of what's happening in the U.S. 01:37 but in the rest of the western world, 01:39 but particularly in the U.S. on religious liberty. 01:42 I think people have forgotten what it really means, 01:45 but there are many activist groups now 01:47 under the heading I give of the religious right, 01:51 but they're not really one entity. 01:54 But by my analysis a lot of what passes 01:57 for religious liberty is really a sort of an entitlement. 02:03 Do you see it the same way? 02:04 How would you describe where we're heading 02:07 in the public application of religious freedom? 02:11 Yeah, I think I mentioned before that 02:17 Christians have this notion that they, 02:21 you know, this entitlement viewpoint of... 02:23 As a Christian I have the right to, 02:26 when I go outside my doorsteps not to hear secular music 02:29 to shape what is being played on T.V. 02:34 that reflects my worldview as a Christian. 02:37 And I think when we think, 02:40 begin to think in that entitlement type of fashion, 02:44 we're entering very dangerous ground 02:46 because that right is now infringing 02:50 on someone else's ability to live out their life, 02:55 and so religious liberty has taken on a definition 03:02 in that wasn't the original definition of that... 03:06 Yeah, and that's what it confirm. 03:08 And the example that comes to mind on this 03:12 that you might not be fully aware of it 03:14 but there was a Supreme Court case 03:17 year or two ago called the Hobby Lobby case. 03:20 And this was the Hobby Lobby chain 03:23 that everyone sees as they travel around, 03:26 run by a family owned and run business corporation 03:31 I guess but family run, 03:34 deeply dedicated Christians and I can't comment on that, 03:38 I take it at face value. 03:40 And it's part of their religious position they felt 03:45 that the Obama Care Provisions contained some things 03:49 they felt were immoral, contraception and abortions 03:53 and all of that sort of thing. 03:54 And so they said d that as a business 03:57 they were not going to provide 04:00 a standard healthcare coverage that's required. 04:04 All employers are required and the employers provide 04:09 and employees would expect now against their principles 04:13 and what you said definitely applies there. 04:16 The result of the decision 04:18 to upheld their right to withhold the coverage, 04:24 means that their employees, 04:26 who may or may not hold their religious viewpoint 04:29 are deprived of what other employees 04:31 by government mandate get. 04:34 So to me, now there are some people 04:36 in our religious liberty fraternity 04:38 who might argue differently, 04:39 but I think when you put it that way, it's pretty plain. 04:43 Someone's religious faith has now deprived somebody else 04:47 of what they would normally get or at least 04:50 even the choice to do or not do something 04:57 that they felt wrong because they're even assuming 05:00 that their employees would choose wrongly 05:03 on the smorgasbord of religious or medical options. 05:09 Maybe that person shares their view 05:11 and wouldn't ever take advantage of it. 05:14 So it's two steps removed from this person 05:18 individually acting on their faith. 05:20 Now they want to decide ahead of time 05:23 that someone else will not have the ability 05:25 to make a wrong choice. 05:27 That's right. 05:28 God never did such a thing. 05:29 So it's opposed to God's principle. 05:32 Yes, it's very interesting to me 05:34 and we can also talk about the California issue... 05:38 Yes, I know that's on your mind, 05:39 absolutely we need to. 05:41 Yes, where, you know, you have the LGBT community, 05:45 you know, seeking to push legislation 05:49 that would take away grant money 05:53 from Christian institutions of higher learning 05:56 to their students if they uphold their religious views 06:01 on same sex marriage and so forth. 06:04 And so we see a lot of issues like this taking place 06:09 where economic incentives or disincentives 06:13 are urging people to adopt one value system over another. 06:18 And I think that's only going to increase 06:20 as we move forward in our society. 06:24 I need this to say for our viewers that 06:26 at the moment that legislative initiative has died. 06:30 That's right. But we do believe... 06:33 In fact fully expect it will come back 06:35 again and again and again. 06:37 It's not going to go away. 06:38 And it came as a result of a coalition 06:40 of varying Christian groups getting together 06:44 and really pushing their, you know, 06:50 their opposition to that bill, 06:52 and I think some of the pressure 06:55 worked and whether you agree with that or not. 06:57 Yeah, for now... 06:59 But they're swimming against the tide of social change 07:04 and of empowerment of the gay community. 07:07 And as they often say in many thing 07:10 but particularly in politics, follow the money. 07:13 And the money is the lead here that is going to be the undoing 07:17 of the religious educational institutions 07:21 because they are either taking direct grants or usually there, 07:26 I think it's Cal grants where the... 07:30 in California where the student gets the grant. 07:33 But the government doesn't see it 07:36 as much of a distinction. 07:38 They're giving the money to that institution 07:41 thereby the government feels that they legitimately 07:45 should have a say and have that institution runs 07:48 and in particular does it apply 07:53 the laws and protections against discrimination 07:56 that would be anywhere. 08:00 The Supreme Court did decide a few years ago 08:02 in Hosanna-Tabor, 08:06 case called Hosanna-Tabor that the church 08:09 and its ministers 08:10 and its direct church run operations 08:12 is exempt from some of these anti discrimination laws, 08:15 which is sort of odd 08:17 because you don't want the church to discriminate. 08:19 That's right. 08:20 But it's such high stakes that the state has decided 08:23 there's more to be lost if they come in 08:26 and bother the church operation. 08:28 So there's a certain protection but a church school 08:33 that is taking government money 08:34 that is not only educating ministers 08:39 say and Bible workers can expect I think 08:43 to lose ground on this sort of initiative 08:46 that has happened recently in California, 08:50 and it's a bit more than just the money that's at stake 08:54 because accreditation is going to be questioned. 08:58 Then there are going to be demands 09:00 and we know this already for gay student housing, 09:05 and I don't think the Adventist Church 09:08 is quite ready for, 09:10 perhaps other churches are, 09:12 but I think there's got to be a huge double takers, 09:17 you know, if you accept that this exists in society 09:21 but now do you facilitate this sort of lifestyle. 09:26 It's a big moment of truth for Christian education 09:30 and it's been brought upon them I think by taking the money 09:34 and playing the accreditation game, 09:37 but it's too late to go back. 09:39 I mean you spoke for a while or preached for a while 09:42 at an institution called Weimar. 09:45 Yeah. 09:46 Wonderful, self-supporting church educational institution. 09:52 Weimar I think is exempt from most of this 09:55 because they are not fully accredited 09:57 or they don't seek accreditation. 10:00 And they're not seeking government money. 10:02 Well, that was one of the discussions 10:03 that we as a facility had 10:05 because we were moving towards... 10:06 I know that, I didn't want to say it. 10:09 Yes, and having said that those things were discussed, 10:15 would that impose on our ability to teach 10:18 what we teach and you know, from our religious standpoint. 10:21 That's good to know so, you know, 10:23 what came of those discussions? 10:24 Well, we felt that we could move forward 10:28 at least the policy that at the time I was there 10:31 because I left before that discussion was resolved. 10:36 And so we had decided to continue moving forward 10:39 because we felt that WASC was not 10:42 and that's the accrediting body there 10:46 would not infringe upon the autonomy of Weimar. 10:49 And as long as they don't, that's good. 10:50 And this is typical of the balancing act 10:53 that church institutions 10:56 have always had to make in a secular society. 10:59 I've forgotten by the way that that education 11:02 was once totally the province of the churches. 11:05 That's right. 11:06 And then the state took it over 11:07 and now in a way institutions like Weimar 11:11 are pulling some of it back, 11:13 because education shouldn't be morally neutral, 11:16 there's no question on that. 11:18 But back to our point on religious liberty 11:22 and it being really more and more unfortunately 11:24 an entitlement question. 11:28 You know where do we go with this 11:29 because that isn't religious liberty. 11:34 People that have religious faith should be... 11:37 I was about to use the word tolerant 11:39 but that's really the problem. 11:41 We used to argue a lot or point out 11:45 a lot the great difference 11:47 between true religious liberty and tolerance. 11:50 Tolerance is allowing you to do what I hate 11:53 and wouldn't otherwise allow, 11:55 but in a good time I'll let you get away with it. 11:58 And in a bad time like, you know, 12:00 clampdown, close the gates. 12:04 Religious Liberty grants it to you 12:06 even in the bad times, 12:07 because you inherently are worthy of the right 12:10 to choose and practice your faith. 12:13 You know what? 12:15 What concerns me is, you know, 12:17 I was listening to the radio 12:19 or I may have watched something 12:21 where a religious or a political commentator 12:25 was stating and this individual was a profess... 12:29 professing Christian 12:31 stating how we need to go to 12:33 these non-Christian nations with our guns, 12:37 with our military and our might and really force them, 12:42 compel them to become Christians. 12:46 And when I was listening to this 12:49 that really frightened me as a Christian. 12:52 Certainly do I want the whole world 12:54 to be believers in the biblical faith? 12:59 Absolutely. 13:00 But the method and the means 13:03 by which that is accomplished is very important 13:07 and I believe that what this political commentator 13:10 was stating was a violation of Christianity itself. 13:14 Why were they saying we should do that? 13:19 Because in that person's worldview 13:22 everyone should be Christian. 13:25 But they weren't saying this is a reaction 13:26 to other things that are happening. 13:28 You know we are on the receiving end 13:31 of what amounts to revitalize global jihad. 13:35 Yes. 13:37 And whatever anyone thinks about Islam 13:38 and its doctrines and so on. 13:40 There's no question that historically 13:42 its modus operandi was conquest. 13:44 Now Christianity as had phases of conversion by conquest 13:51 but from the beginning Muhammad himself 13:54 instituted that and that's, 13:57 that's you look at the world map 13:58 and the world of Islam is the world of conquest, 14:02 a little bit of trade but primarily of conquest. 14:05 Well, you can't say that for Christianity. 14:09 Even in India there, 14:11 I think that Thomas made it that far, 14:13 there was no conquest there. 14:15 And same with England and so on. 14:17 That's right. 14:19 But I think we're entering the phase 14:21 where people are starting to see it in these terms 14:23 and that's very unfortunate. 14:24 Yes. 14:28 Now we have to conquer the heart. 14:29 That's right. 14:30 Conquer the heart and the mind and if we can't, 14:35 and this is of course where it becomes tricky 14:38 that we need to allow people to go their own way. 14:42 You know I think forced conformity 14:45 with the motivation of fear 14:48 is a very, very dangerous water to tread on... 14:53 Absolutely, I won't... 14:55 I do it myself but I won't even comment on the mixed metaphor. 15:01 We'll be back after a short break 15:03 to discuss religious liberty 15:07 and is it the compulsion or is it an entitlement 15:11 or is it a God given right 15:12 that we should give to all people. 15:14 Stay with us. |
Revised 2016-10-31