Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
designed to get you thinking
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about religious
liberty issues in the U.S.
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and around the world.
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We deal with
reviews, views and analysis.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on
the program is Andy Im.
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You've got it
right. What does it mean?
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Do you know the
meaning of your name?
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I don't, I don't.
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I'm not really a
good Korean if you will...
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Is that your
original family origin?
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I am, yes, I can
barely speak my language so...
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Well, but we will try
to avoid your language
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since I barely speak it either.
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Okay. That's good, that's good.
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But for our viewer sake,
you lead out in communications
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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in the Michigan area,
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and you're also a
leader in campus ministries
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for young people,
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and I've already
learned a good student
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of current affairs
and history and theology,
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you're an ordained minister.
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Let's talk about a lot of
what's happening in the U.S.
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but in the rest
of the western world,
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but particularly in the
U.S. on religious liberty.
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I think people have
forgotten what it really means,
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but there are many
activist groups now
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under the heading I
give of the religious right,
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but they're not
really one entity.
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But by my analysis
a lot of what passes
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for religious liberty is
really a sort of an entitlement.
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Do you see it the same way?
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How would you
describe where we're heading
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in the public application
of religious freedom?
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Yeah, I think I
mentioned before that
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Christians have
this notion that they,
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you know, this
entitlement viewpoint of...
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As a Christian I
have the right to,
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when I go outside my doorsteps
not to hear secular music
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to shape what is
being played on T.V.
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that reflects my
worldview as a Christian.
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And I think when we think,
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begin to think in that
entitlement type of fashion,
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we're entering
very dangerous ground
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because that
right is now infringing
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on someone else's
ability to live out their life,
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and so religious liberty
has taken on a definition
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in that wasn't the
original definition of that...
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Yeah, and
that's what it confirm.
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And the example that
comes to mind on this
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that you might not
be fully aware of it
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but there was a
Supreme Court case
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year or two ago
called the Hobby Lobby case.
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And this was the
Hobby Lobby chain
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that everyone sees
as they travel around,
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run by a family owned
and run business corporation
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I guess but family run,
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deeply dedicated Christians
and I can't comment on that,
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I take it at face value.
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And it's part of their
religious position they felt
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that the Obama Care
Provisions contained some things
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they felt were immoral,
contraception and abortions
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and all of that sort of thing.
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And so they said
d that as a business
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they were not going to provide
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a standard healthcare
coverage that's required.
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All employers are required
and the employers provide
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and employees would expect
now against their principles
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and what you said
definitely applies there.
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The result of the decision
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to upheld their right
to withhold the coverage,
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means that their employees,
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who may or may not hold
their religious viewpoint
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are deprived of
what other employees
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by government mandate get.
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So to me, now
there are some people
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in our religious
liberty fraternity
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who might argue differently,
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but I think when you put it
that way, it's pretty plain.
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Someone's religious faith
has now deprived somebody else
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of what they would
normally get or at least
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even the choice to
do or not do something
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that they felt wrong
because they're even assuming
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that their
employees would choose wrongly
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on the smorgasbord of
religious or medical options.
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Maybe that
person shares their view
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and wouldn't ever
take advantage of it.
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So it's two steps
removed from this person
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individually
acting on their faith.
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Now they want to
decide ahead of time
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that someone else
will not have the ability
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to make a wrong choice.
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That's right.
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God never did such a thing.
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So it's opposed
to God's principle.
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Yes, it's very interesting to me
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and we can also talk
about the California issue...
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Yes, I know that's on your mind,
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absolutely we need to.
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Yes, where, you know,
you have the LGBT community,
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you know, seeking
to push legislation
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that would take away grant money
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from Christian
institutions of higher learning
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to their students if they
uphold their religious views
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on same sex
marriage and so forth.
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And so we see a lot of
issues like this taking place
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where economic
incentives or disincentives
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are urging people to adopt
one value system over another.
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And I think that's
only going to increase
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as we move
forward in our society.
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I need this to say
for our viewers that
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at the moment that
legislative initiative has died.
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That's right.
But we do believe...
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In fact fully
expect it will come back
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again and again and again.
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It's not going to go away.
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And it came as a
result of a coalition
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of varying Christian
groups getting together
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and really
pushing their, you know,
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their opposition to that bill,
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and I think some of the pressure
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worked and whether you
agree with that or not.
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Yeah, for now...
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But they're swimming against
the tide of social change
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and of empowerment
of the gay community.
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And as they
often say in many thing
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but particularly in
politics, follow the money.
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And the money is the lead here
that is going to be the undoing
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of the religious
educational institutions
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because they are either taking
direct grants or usually there,
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I think it's Cal
grants where the...
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in California where
the student gets the grant.
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But the
government doesn't see it
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as much of a distinction.
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They're giving the
money to that institution
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thereby the government
feels that they legitimately
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should have a say and
have that institution runs
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and in particular does it apply
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the laws and protections
against discrimination
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that would be anywhere.
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The Supreme Court did
decide a few years ago
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in Hosanna-Tabor,
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case called
Hosanna-Tabor that the church
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and its ministers
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and its direct
church run operations
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is exempt from some of
these anti discrimination laws,
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which is sort of odd
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because you don't want
the church to discriminate.
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That's right.
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But it's such high stakes
that the state has decided
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there's more to be
lost if they come in
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and bother the church operation.
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So there's a certain
protection but a church school
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that is taking government money
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that is not only
educating ministers
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say and Bible
workers can expect I think
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to lose ground on
this sort of initiative
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that has happened
recently in California,
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and it's a bit more than
just the money that's at stake
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because accreditation
is going to be questioned.
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Then there are
going to be demands
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and we know this
already for gay student housing,
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and I don't think
the Adventist Church
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is quite ready for,
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perhaps other churches are,
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but I think there's got
to be a huge double takers,
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you know, if you accept
that this exists in society
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but now do you facilitate
this sort of lifestyle.
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It's a big moment of
truth for Christian education
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and it's been brought upon
them I think by taking the money
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and playing the
accreditation game,
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but it's too late to go back.
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I mean you spoke for a
while or preached for a while
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at an institution called Weimar.
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Yeah.
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Wonderful, self-supporting
church educational institution.
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Weimar I think is
exempt from most of this
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because they are
not fully accredited
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or they don't
seek accreditation.
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And they're not
seeking government money.
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Well, that was
one of the discussions
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that we as a facility had
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because we were
moving towards...
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I know that, I
didn't want to say it.
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Yes, and having said that
those things were discussed,
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would that impose
on our ability to teach
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what we teach and you know,
from our religious standpoint.
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That's good to
know so, you know,
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what came of those discussions?
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Well, we felt that
we could move forward
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at least the policy
that at the time I was there
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because I left before
that discussion was resolved.
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And so we had decided
to continue moving forward
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because we felt
that WASC was not
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and that's the
accrediting body there
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would not infringe
upon the autonomy of Weimar.
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And as long as
they don't, that's good.
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And this is typical
of the balancing act
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that church institutions
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have always had to
make in a secular society.
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I've forgotten by the
way that that education
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was once totally the
province of the churches.
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That's right.
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And then the state took it over
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and now in a way
institutions like Weimar
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are pulling some of it back,
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because education
shouldn't be morally neutral,
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there's no question on that.
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But back to our
point on religious liberty
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and it being really
more and more unfortunately
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an entitlement question.
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You know where
do we go with this
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because that
isn't religious liberty.
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People that have
religious faith should be...
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I was about to
use the word tolerant
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but that's really the problem.
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We used to argue
a lot or point out
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a lot the great difference
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between true
religious liberty and tolerance.
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Tolerance is
allowing you to do what I hate
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and wouldn't otherwise allow,
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but in a good time I'll
let you get away with it.
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And in a bad
time like, you know,
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clampdown, close the gates.
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Religious
Liberty grants it to you
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even in the bad times,
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because you inherently
are worthy of the right
00:12:07.62\00:12:10.53
to choose and
practice your faith.
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You know what?
00:12:13.66\00:12:15.00
What concerns me is, you know,
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I was listening to the radio
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or I may have watched something
00:12:19.83\00:12:21.57
where a religious or
a political commentator
00:12:21.60\00:12:25.07
was stating and this
individual was a profess...
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professing Christian
00:12:29.98\00:12:31.75
stating how we need to go to
00:12:31.78\00:12:33.68
these non-Christian
nations with our guns,
00:12:33.72\00:12:37.59
with our military and our
might and really force them,
00:12:37.62\00:12:42.49
compel them to
become Christians.
00:12:42.52\00:12:46.29
And when I was listening to this
00:12:46.33\00:12:49.20
that really
frightened me as a Christian.
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Certainly do I
want the whole world
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to be believers in
the biblical faith?
00:12:54.67\00:12:59.24
Absolutely.
00:12:59.27\00:13:00.94
But the method and the means
00:13:00.98\00:13:03.14
by which that is
accomplished is very important
00:13:03.18\00:13:07.05
and I believe that what
this political commentator
00:13:07.08\00:13:10.29
was stating was a violation
of Christianity itself.
00:13:10.32\00:13:14.52
Why were they
saying we should do that?
00:13:14.56\00:13:19.39
Because in that
person's worldview
00:13:19.43\00:13:22.90
everyone should be Christian.
00:13:22.93\00:13:24.97
But they weren't
saying this is a reaction
00:13:25.00\00:13:26.70
to other things
that are happening.
00:13:26.74\00:13:28.50
You know we are
on the receiving end
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of what amounts to
revitalize global jihad.
00:13:31.64\00:13:35.38
Yes.
00:13:35.41\00:13:37.11
And whatever
anyone thinks about Islam
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and its doctrines and so on.
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There's no
question that historically
00:13:40.35\00:13:42.18
its modus operandi was conquest.
00:13:42.22\00:13:44.79
Now Christianity as had
phases of conversion by conquest
00:13:44.82\00:13:51.69
but from the
beginning Muhammad himself
00:13:51.73\00:13:54.20
instituted that and that's,
00:13:54.23\00:13:56.97
that's you look at the world map
00:13:57.00\00:13:58.33
and the world of Islam
is the world of conquest,
00:13:58.37\00:14:02.00
a little bit of trade
but primarily of conquest.
00:14:02.04\00:14:05.67
Well, you can't say
that for Christianity.
00:14:05.71\00:14:09.01
Even in India there,
00:14:09.04\00:14:11.41
I think that
Thomas made it that far,
00:14:11.45\00:14:13.45
there was no conquest there.
00:14:13.48\00:14:15.45
And same with England and so on.
00:14:15.48\00:14:17.92
That's right.
00:14:17.95\00:14:19.29
But I think we're
entering the phase
00:14:19.32\00:14:21.02
where people are starting
to see it in these terms
00:14:21.06\00:14:23.19
and that's very unfortunate.
00:14:23.22\00:14:24.73
Yes.
00:14:24.76\00:14:28.00
Now we have to
conquer the heart.
00:14:28.03\00:14:29.36
That's right.
00:14:29.40\00:14:30.73
Conquer the heart and
the mind and if we can't,
00:14:30.77\00:14:34.97
and this is of course
where it becomes tricky
00:14:35.00\00:14:38.24
that we need to allow
people to go their own way.
00:14:38.27\00:14:42.01
You know I think
forced conformity
00:14:42.04\00:14:45.11
with the motivation of fear
00:14:45.15\00:14:48.18
is a very, very
dangerous water to tread on...
00:14:48.22\00:14:53.69
Absolutely, I won't...
00:14:53.72\00:14:55.92
I do it myself but I won't even
comment on the mixed metaphor.
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We'll be back
after a short break
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to discuss religious liberty
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and is it the compulsion
or is it an entitlement
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or is it a God given right
00:15:11.14\00:15:12.47
that we should
give to all people.
00:15:12.51\00:15:14.31
Stay with us.
00:15:14.34\00:15:15.91