Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Andy Im
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000337B
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00:05 Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break, 00:09 you saw a video with an interview, 00:12 an interview with a gentleman 00:13 from the Middle East, 00:18 from Egypt, and my guest, 00:22 you are not from Egypt, 00:24 you are not from the Middle East. 00:25 No. 00:27 Good old USA, 00:28 but you know we see the world wide events 00:30 and, Andy, I'd like to talk a little bit further about 00:35 how we can address 00:37 this as Christians and as westerners 00:40 because I believe that there is a real conflict, 00:43 a clash of civilizations and different religions 00:48 that come with it. 00:49 So you can't just sort of wish 00:50 the thing away or will it away by tolerance. 00:55 There's something heavy going on. 00:58 But as you said about France, 01:01 perhaps they were overzealous in restricting 01:04 something that in itself was pretty harmless. 01:06 But the facts are that they knew 01:08 what it represented, 01:09 this was sort of the camel's nose 01:13 in the tent flap on a larger issue. 01:16 Do you agree with that? 01:18 I would, yes, absolutely. 01:22 I think, of course, 01:24 the issue has to do with one's fundamental right 01:30 or the freedom of one's conscience 01:34 to carry out their conviction 01:36 and I think any laws 01:37 especially that French law in about 30 cities, 01:41 I know it's been overruled in some of them, 01:44 but I do think that, 01:45 that infringes on a person 01:47 to carry out their religious conviction 01:49 and I would oppose that. 01:51 Yes, and this is the catch. 01:53 You have to have neutrality 01:58 toward religious practices. 02:01 Religious Liberty works for all or it works for none. 02:03 Once you start carving off and in the United States 02:07 ironically with the President Bush's 02:09 faith based initiative, 02:11 they were very quickly on the way to doing that. 02:13 I remember talking to one of their representatives 02:16 for the faith based initiative in the Justice Department 02:19 and I said, "You're funneling all this money, 02:21 government money through to the churches." 02:23 You clearly have a process of vetting 02:25 who gets the money or not. 02:27 So after while you have a list of churches 02:29 you trust and churches you don't, 02:31 and that's a very bad way for the government to act. 02:36 They should be out of the church business 02:37 and allow all churches to operate. 02:40 And if any church 02:41 or Christian or any faith person 02:45 in practicing their faith 02:47 does something that harms the fellow citizens 02:50 or something dangerous, 02:52 illegal, violent or whatever, 02:54 they should be punished under the law like anyone else. 02:56 No hesitation, 02:58 but don't mess with their religious practice per se, 03:01 and this is the danger 03:03 of the French thing I agree with you. 03:04 Yeah. 03:06 It's not good that they have chosen 03:07 to restrict this particular religious practice. 03:10 They're doing in the name of secularity, 03:11 but they could just as easily say, 03:13 you're not allowed to pray in public. 03:15 That's right. 03:17 We don't want that. 03:18 You see someone bowing their head, fine. 03:20 Yes. 03:21 I mean they're not about to do that 03:23 but in theory they could 03:24 or if there was a change of administration. 03:27 Yeah. 03:28 You know what we are seeing in society is a conflict 03:32 of competing worldviews 03:34 whether it be Islam, 03:36 whether it be Christianity, whether it be secularism, 03:39 and I sincerely believe 03:43 that we're reaching 03:45 a stage in this earth's history 03:47 where there really is no solution 03:49 and the anti is being pushed toward, 03:52 the envelop is being pushed further and further 03:56 to a point where these, 03:58 where these conflicts 03:59 are going to be increasingly more. 04:02 We're going to see them on wider scale more frequently 04:06 and that, that's troubling and having said that, 04:13 ultimately the ultimate solution 04:15 will be the second coming of Jesus 04:18 and it behoove us as Christians 04:22 to really work that much harder 04:24 not in political or social activism, 04:27 but in again taking the gospel message 04:33 to the world. 04:34 As far as religious liberty, 04:36 way too many of my fellows 04:38 Seventh-day Adventist Christian say, 04:41 exciting what you just said, well listen, 04:43 we know it's not going to end. 04:44 We know that Jesus coming is the only solution. 04:48 And we know that there will even be harassment, 04:50 persecution of certain religious groups 04:53 so let it come. 04:55 Let's have it. 04:56 Why fight it, let's just go through. 04:59 And I think that is misunderstanding 05:01 the whole dynamic and you're not saying 05:03 that we should just fold our hands and say let it come. 05:07 Absolutely not because that would be irresponsible 05:11 for me as a Christian to just say, 05:13 you know what, Jesus is going to come anyway, 05:16 so let things roll as they are. 05:18 No, Jesus gave us the responsibility 05:22 to stand up for the poor, 05:25 the afflicted, and the abused, 05:28 and the victims of society. 05:30 And so I think we need to play an active role 05:34 in terms of helping and assisting those in need. 05:38 Whenever we can, 05:40 at the same time our eye should be set 05:45 plainly toward that second coming 05:48 and gathering other people to be with us. 05:51 That's right. 05:52 And of course, 05:53 along with that we have to deal with the religions, 05:56 we have to be charitable toward other people. 05:58 We would defend religious liberty because it enables 06:03 what we're doing as well as protects 06:06 the inherent God given rights of other people, right? 06:09 That's right. 06:12 But this thing in France 06:14 and France is not the only country. 06:16 I think it's important because I don't think in the US 06:20 they quite understand 06:21 what's happened to France and Germany. 06:24 There have been so many migrant workers come in 06:27 and so many immigrates 06:31 from the once colonial outposts 06:35 in parts of Paris. 06:37 I remember a few years ago, 06:38 I drove from one side of Paris to the other, 06:40 it was a mistake of the GPS. 06:42 Rather than specifying shortest 06:45 I specified most direct 06:46 so I drove from one side of Paris 06:48 to the other, street by street. 06:51 And I can tell you there are whole stretches 06:53 of miles upon mile. 06:55 You think you're in central Africa 06:59 and not a nice part of Central Africa, 07:01 they're burned and abandoned cars everywhere. 07:06 Gutted buildings, 07:10 decrepit buildings 07:11 with people milling around them. 07:14 They have... 07:16 They were on the verge of losing 07:18 social control over parts of their own country. 07:22 That would be bad period but then when you throw in 07:25 an intractable religious element 07:29 that refuses to not only to assimilate, 07:33 but is an antagonistic toward 07:37 both the secularism and the religion of the France. 07:41 They've got a problem 07:43 that I'm sure the secular leaders 07:45 are just wringing their hands, 07:47 they don't know the answer to it. 07:49 Their very identity as a country is at stake. 07:53 And you can say the same for Germany. 07:55 And I understand a lot of this from seeing 07:57 it but the only thing I freely admit 07:59 I don't understand is who opened the gates 08:02 last year and let those 08:05 hundreds of thousands of people flood into Europe. 08:08 There's a plan somewhere 08:10 and I don't even know what the end point is, 08:12 but it's easy to see what it's creating, 08:15 it's social conflict and religious conflict 08:18 on an unimaginable scale. 08:21 And I do believe these issues are too complex 08:25 for you and I to even attempt to solve them... 08:28 No, but we need to discuss that 08:30 because this is very important. 08:32 These are acting as trigger environments 08:35 for some very untoward religious liberty situations. 08:39 That's right and ultimately they're going, 08:43 I mean it's being discussed in our country. 08:45 What to do with the refugees in Syria 08:49 and other countries and certain, 08:50 and some of our presidential candidate, 08:54 candidates have very specific views on that 08:57 but, you know, for me as a Christian 09:02 I don't believe it's my responsibility 09:04 to engage that debate in terms of policy 09:08 and the politics of it 09:09 but, what I do believe 09:13 is a theological biblical matter 09:15 is how I am to treat and perceive 09:20 those of faith communities that differ from my own, 09:23 and I don't, 09:25 I don't believe we should be branding them 09:29 or articulating how they are enemies 09:32 and using pejorative language 09:35 to describe any group of people, 09:37 because ultimately we want to win them to Christianity. 09:41 Well, and this is the reality 09:45 anyhow in France and in the US. 09:50 It's unlikely that enough buses could be, 09:54 got to get at the ship all of these people somewhere else. 09:57 When you're dealing 09:58 with tens of millions of people, 10:01 it's the reality says somehow 10:04 society is short of the second coming of Christ 10:07 needs to minimize these conflicts 10:10 and you're right. 10:12 The principles of Christian charity, 10:15 the overarching principle of religious liberty 10:19 and the right of all people to believe 10:21 as they believe and not to compel 10:24 me to believe as they believe which is part of us. 10:27 No compulsion in religion, 10:29 that principle needs to be applied 10:31 and it's the only way 10:35 toward semi-peaceful 10:39 or a peaceful society. 10:43 Absolutely. 10:44 We are, you know I love history 10:47 and there's no question 10:49 we were at a break point of history 10:51 with even the nation states 10:53 that date back to just after Martin Luther 10:55 and the 30 years war in Europe, 10:59 states are breaking down, societies are breaking down, 11:02 religion is erupting in violent ways 11:04 and something needs to be done. 11:07 Absolutely. 11:08 And one thing that I want to highlight 11:11 as we close is that we need to be very careful 11:14 that we as Christians 11:17 do not take on the viewpoints of news commentators, 11:22 of social media in terms of how we, 11:24 how we view others 11:26 but we need to have the Bible inform 11:28 how we view others in other faiths. 11:33 Modesty obviously has its limits. 11:36 And certain religious dress 11:38 such as the full burka may have revealed them. 11:42 But it's worth remembering 11:44 that in the Victorian era 11:46 and other times in western society, 11:50 poems were written. 11:52 Many men were driven to distraction by the sight 11:55 of a few inches of ankle. 11:58 We should be of course understanding 12:02 of religious sensibilities 12:04 that after all are aiming at the same respect 12:08 and honor toward God 12:11 that Christians and others would want in their behavior 12:14 that we see in this case Muslim dress. 12:19 The Seventh-day Adventist Church 12:21 as religious liberty department has been careful 12:27 to help this concern. 12:28 I know in Oregon, 12:31 we were one of the main proponents 12:34 of a religious dress bill that definitely advance 12:37 the principle of freedom 12:39 for religious dress of all faiths. 12:42 But we must never think 12:44 that this is something that we can dismiss out of hand 12:48 just because the social norm flies against it. 12:52 Religion is not to be equated with social norms. 12:58 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2016-10-31