Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:28.62\00:00:30.83
This is the
program bringing you news,
00:00:30.86\00:00:32.83
views, discussion, analysis
on religious liberty events
00:00:32.86\00:00:36.50
in the US and around the world.
00:00:36.53\00:00:38.80
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:38.83\00:00:42.87
And my guest on
this program is Andy Im.
00:00:42.90\00:00:47.48
You're director
of communications
00:00:47.51\00:00:49.58
within the Seventh-day
Adventist Church in Michigan.
00:00:49.61\00:00:52.65
You've also,
00:00:52.68\00:00:54.45
and I wanna pick up on this,
00:00:54.48\00:00:55.92
you're in a leadership
position for campus ministries.
00:00:55.95\00:00:58.92
That's right.
00:00:58.95\00:01:00.96
Is it just with Seventh-day
Adventist young people
00:01:00.99\00:01:03.02
or it's a broader audience?
00:01:03.06\00:01:04.39
Oh, we work with all
the major universities
00:01:04.43\00:01:06.83
in the state of Michigan.
00:01:06.86\00:01:08.20
Yeah, and there's
quite a few there.
00:01:08.23\00:01:09.76
There is, yeah.
00:01:09.80\00:01:11.37
Some of them even
very good at sports.
00:01:11.40\00:01:13.54
That's right.
That's right, yeah.
00:01:13.57\00:01:15.20
I don't follow it that
much but I often see the...
00:01:15.24\00:01:17.64
Yes.
00:01:17.67\00:01:19.17
Well, UOM and MSU,
00:01:19.21\00:01:21.64
you know it's
Michigan and Michigan state,
00:01:21.68\00:01:23.51
of course, are
big rivalries and...
00:01:23.55\00:01:25.41
Right.
00:01:25.45\00:01:26.78
Well, on religious liberty.
00:01:26.82\00:01:29.18
It's long troubled me
00:01:29.22\00:01:31.69
that while there were many
tens, hundreds of thousands
00:01:31.72\00:01:34.99
of activists all over the world
00:01:35.02\00:01:36.69
and people giving their
lives for religious liberty.
00:01:36.73\00:01:40.00
Often young people
are not on the forefront.
00:01:40.03\00:01:46.47
Young people, many of
them and I've spoken to groups,
00:01:46.50\00:01:49.80
I don't think
they quite understand
00:01:49.84\00:01:53.04
the underlying principles.
00:01:53.07\00:01:55.54
So there's a
huge challenge there.
00:01:55.58\00:01:57.88
So I want to discuss with you
00:01:57.91\00:01:59.25
how can we address
that both within our church
00:01:59.28\00:02:03.59
which takes a
strong leadership position
00:02:03.62\00:02:06.49
on religious liberty,
00:02:06.52\00:02:07.86
through Liberty
Magazine which I edit,
00:02:07.89\00:02:10.66
a little advertisement here.
00:02:10.69\00:02:12.03
Yes.
00:02:12.06\00:02:13.40
You know, we're printing
nearly 200,000 Liberty magazines
00:02:13.43\00:02:16.30
every issue
00:02:16.33\00:02:17.67
and they almost totally go out
to secular government leaders
00:02:17.70\00:02:22.24
and community leaders
not to our church members.
00:02:22.27\00:02:24.94
That's unique.
00:02:24.97\00:02:27.28
But even our own young people,
00:02:27.31\00:02:30.15
I don't think
are fully motivated
00:02:30.18\00:02:32.58
and what's the key?
00:02:32.61\00:02:33.98
I'm just looking for the key.
00:02:34.02\00:02:35.35
I know in religion in general,
00:02:35.38\00:02:38.92
the torch hasn't easily
passed to the next generation,
00:02:38.95\00:02:42.16
very secular era
00:02:42.19\00:02:43.99
and young people are
following the Pied Piper
00:02:44.03\00:02:46.83
elsewhere, many of them.
00:02:46.86\00:02:48.20
But on religious
liberty how do you think we can,
00:02:48.23\00:02:51.90
we can,
00:02:51.93\00:02:53.70
you're reaching out to them
00:02:53.74\00:02:55.07
but how can we get
them in to do something,
00:02:55.10\00:02:58.51
to take a lead in
religious liberty?
00:02:58.54\00:03:01.58
You know that's a big challenge.
00:03:01.61\00:03:02.94
You know much of the
discussion in our church is,
00:03:02.98\00:03:05.15
is how can we
impact the millennials
00:03:05.18\00:03:07.82
and how do we get them,
you know, more proactive?
00:03:07.85\00:03:10.09
Yeah, I said young
people but broken it down.
00:03:10.12\00:03:13.15
Yes.
00:03:13.19\00:03:14.69
And that's a
challenge working with students
00:03:14.72\00:03:17.56
on secular campuses,
00:03:17.59\00:03:18.93
a lot of them are focused
on their academic careers
00:03:18.96\00:03:23.10
and so forth.
00:03:23.13\00:03:24.47
And to bring them
back to a mission focus
00:03:24.50\00:03:28.60
is one of the
challenges we go through.
00:03:28.64\00:03:31.51
You know there is a lot
of movements taking place
00:03:31.54\00:03:35.08
in which young
people are also included.
00:03:35.11\00:03:37.41
There are many rights
that are being violated.
00:03:37.45\00:03:42.02
You see the police brutality,
00:03:42.05\00:03:44.89
you see minority issues
00:03:44.92\00:03:49.62
and the whole host of issues
taking place in our country.
00:03:49.66\00:03:54.90
And as a result of that
00:03:54.93\00:03:56.70
you have a lot of
movements that have sprung up.
00:03:56.73\00:03:58.70
One of them being the
"Black Lives Matter Movement,"
00:03:58.73\00:04:02.47
reacting to that now,
it's "all lives matter"
00:04:02.50\00:04:05.14
and should our young people...
And now police lives matter.
00:04:05.17\00:04:10.05
Police lives matter, exactly.
00:04:10.08\00:04:12.18
And should our young
people get involved...
00:04:12.21\00:04:14.68
My point is, a lot
of these are trivialisms
00:04:14.72\00:04:16.38
but it's a sad
commentary on where we are,
00:04:16.42\00:04:19.55
they need to be restated
because we have troubles.
00:04:19.59\00:04:22.22
That's right.
00:04:22.26\00:04:24.23
I do believe that
00:04:24.26\00:04:26.76
the solution is not
so much socio-activism
00:04:26.80\00:04:31.30
and of course everyone needs
to follow their own conscience
00:04:31.33\00:04:35.64
in regards to the activism
that they get involved with.
00:04:35.67\00:04:40.68
I'm just very hesitant
00:04:40.71\00:04:42.41
just simply because I
don't see the solution
00:04:42.44\00:04:47.55
coming from more activism.
00:04:47.58\00:04:51.12
No, I agree with it.
00:04:51.15\00:04:53.89
One thing I sort
of stated early on,
00:04:53.92\00:04:55.66
it's been my view
ever since I was young,
00:04:55.69\00:04:59.13
and I like to think
00:04:59.16\00:05:00.56
I can still think
what it's like to be young.
00:05:00.60\00:05:04.03
My wife won't watch this program
00:05:04.07\00:05:05.73
so I could make a comment
00:05:05.77\00:05:07.57
but in dealing with our teenage,
00:05:07.60\00:05:11.24
we got a son and
a daughter... Yeah.
00:05:11.27\00:05:12.77
I sometimes think
00:05:12.81\00:05:14.14
she's forgotten what it's
like to be young, a teenager.
00:05:14.18\00:05:19.48
Which happens to many adults
00:05:19.51\00:05:21.62
but I can still remember,
I can easily put myself,
00:05:21.65\00:05:24.99
looking at my son I
can imagine myself at 18
00:05:25.02\00:05:27.62
and I know how I thought.
00:05:27.66\00:05:30.16
And one thing
that I'm certain of
00:05:30.19\00:05:31.69
with young people,
00:05:31.73\00:05:33.06
I'm quite certain of
this as a broad statement.
00:05:33.09\00:05:35.60
Young people are
inherently idealistic.
00:05:35.63\00:05:40.64
That's why they
are so easily herded
00:05:40.67\00:05:43.30
to the front
lines in any battle.
00:05:43.34\00:05:46.84
That's why you know they
are the ones throwing rocks
00:05:46.88\00:05:50.05
and they need
rebellion or whatever.
00:05:50.08\00:05:51.55
That's right.
00:05:51.58\00:05:52.91
I don't think it's just
that hey are unrestrained...
00:05:52.95\00:05:54.58
Yeah.
00:05:54.62\00:05:55.95
..or inexperienced,
they're idealistic.
00:05:55.98\00:05:57.99
Yeah.
00:05:58.02\00:05:59.35
They, in Iran and that
was at the Green Rebellion
00:05:59.39\00:06:02.96
they thought that they
could overthrow the mullahs.
00:06:02.99\00:06:06.43
They didn't realize
what they're up against.
00:06:06.46\00:06:09.16
You know an older rational adult
00:06:09.20\00:06:11.27
wouldn't put
themselves in the line of fire
00:06:11.30\00:06:13.64
because their
idealism is not so visceral...
00:06:13.67\00:06:16.67
Vibrant, yes.
00:06:16.71\00:06:18.04
So I do think with young
people you can channel that
00:06:18.07\00:06:21.14
but yet you're almost
saying that's not enough.
00:06:21.18\00:06:24.85
Yes.
00:06:24.88\00:06:27.35
I don't,
00:06:27.38\00:06:28.72
I believe that
certainly we need to be doing
00:06:28.75\00:06:31.99
much more than we are,
00:06:32.02\00:06:34.16
in training young people.
00:06:34.19\00:06:35.52
I think our church
has as many avenues
00:06:35.56\00:06:39.73
to make that happen.
00:06:39.76\00:06:41.80
I wanna read a
quote if you don't mind,
00:06:41.83\00:06:45.33
it's from... I
envy you, you can read.
00:06:45.37\00:06:48.07
Yes.
00:06:48.10\00:06:49.44
On camera I can't...
00:06:49.47\00:06:50.81
My eyes are changing but,
00:06:50.84\00:06:53.68
I can still read
on a screen here,
00:06:53.71\00:06:57.25
and this is very...
00:06:57.28\00:06:58.75
A small font?
00:06:58.78\00:07:00.48
Yes.
00:07:00.52\00:07:02.15
This is very, I think,
00:07:02.18\00:07:04.35
relevant to the
context of today.
00:07:04.39\00:07:07.79
This is from the
book "Desire of Ages"
00:07:07.82\00:07:09.36
written by Ellen White,
00:07:09.39\00:07:10.73
an early founder
00:07:10.76\00:07:12.09
of The
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
00:07:12.13\00:07:13.46
one of them.
00:07:13.50\00:07:15.03
Desire of Ages is a
book about the life of Jesus.
00:07:15.06\00:07:17.63
About the life of Jesus,
a commentary on the gospels.
00:07:17.67\00:07:21.44
And she says here,
00:07:21.47\00:07:22.80
"The government
under which Jesus lived
00:07:22.84\00:07:24.87
was corrupt and oppressive
00:07:24.91\00:07:27.04
on every hand
were crying abuses."
00:07:27.08\00:07:29.88
We see that today.
00:07:29.91\00:07:31.28
She goes on to state extortion,
00:07:31.31\00:07:33.95
intolerance and
grinding cruelty.
00:07:33.98\00:07:37.52
"Yet the Savior
attempted no civil reforms.
00:07:37.55\00:07:40.79
He attacked no national abuses,
00:07:40.82\00:07:43.73
nor condemned
the national enemies.
00:07:43.76\00:07:46.53
He did not
interfere with the authority
00:07:46.56\00:07:48.63
or administration
of those in power.
00:07:48.66\00:07:50.80
He who was our example
00:07:50.83\00:07:52.23
kept aloof from
earthly governments."
00:07:52.27\00:07:55.10
That's a powerful quote.
00:07:55.14\00:07:56.50
And then, I love
how she balances out
00:07:56.54\00:08:00.71
or provides a real solution.
00:08:00.74\00:08:02.14
It says,
00:08:02.18\00:08:03.51
"Not because he was
indifferent to the woes of men,
00:08:03.55\00:08:06.11
meaning being aloof,
00:08:06.15\00:08:07.85
it's not because
he was indifferent
00:08:07.88\00:08:10.05
but because the remedy
did not lie in merely human
00:08:10.09\00:08:13.36
and external measures.
00:08:13.39\00:08:15.42
To be efficient,
00:08:15.46\00:08:16.79
the cure must
reach men individually,
00:08:16.83\00:08:19.49
and must regenerate the heart.
00:08:19.53\00:08:21.80
What the world
needs is heart change,
00:08:21.83\00:08:25.17
not political change,
00:08:25.20\00:08:26.94
not, you know,
00:08:26.97\00:08:30.51
from socialism to capitalism
00:08:30.54\00:08:33.27
or various ideologies.
00:08:33.31\00:08:35.04
What we need is
00:08:35.08\00:08:36.41
the transformation of the heart.
00:08:36.44\00:08:38.38
I absolutely agree with you.
00:08:38.41\00:08:39.78
This is what I've been trying
to say in Liberty Magazine.
00:08:39.81\00:08:43.25
It really troubles me to
see it as a political challenge,
00:08:43.28\00:08:48.49
to fight for religious liberty.
00:08:48.52\00:08:50.83
And it's why, really why,
00:08:50.86\00:08:53.80
those that hear me
and specially in churches,
00:08:53.83\00:08:56.06
I've had people say to me,
00:08:56.10\00:08:58.27
I mean, they say
many different things
00:08:58.30\00:08:59.90
but one comment
that I pay attention
00:08:59.93\00:09:01.44
if they say, oh, it's
all doom and gloom you know?
00:09:01.47\00:09:04.37
Well, I can't
come to any conclusion
00:09:04.41\00:09:06.81
when I see such
desperate social situations
00:09:06.84\00:09:09.98
and the attitudes of people
00:09:10.01\00:09:12.18
are so dangerously off message.
00:09:12.21\00:09:18.09
I wouldn't be encouraged.
00:09:18.12\00:09:21.19
I've gotta be careful about
naming political candidates.
00:09:21.22\00:09:23.32
But let's just say
00:09:23.36\00:09:24.69
one of the two
presidential candidates got in
00:09:24.73\00:09:29.46
and passed a flurry of laws
that fixed up the constitution
00:09:29.50\00:09:35.00
for religious liberty
00:09:35.04\00:09:36.50
where it was
immaculately constructed
00:09:36.54\00:09:39.54
to empower everybody
00:09:39.57\00:09:41.64
to practice
religious faith and so on.
00:09:41.68\00:09:45.01
I wouldn't be
particularly encouraged
00:09:45.05\00:09:46.88
because I would know that
the negative social attitudes
00:09:46.92\00:09:50.05
are still there
00:09:50.09\00:09:51.42
and they are the engines driving
00:09:51.45\00:09:54.82
really my negativity.
00:09:54.86\00:09:56.46
That's right.
00:09:56.49\00:09:57.83
You know I wanna add to that.
00:09:57.86\00:10:01.43
You know, there are a lot
of movements taking place.
00:10:01.46\00:10:03.93
You know, if I go
on to my Facebook page,
00:10:03.97\00:10:07.14
you know, you
see many young people
00:10:07.17\00:10:09.30
involved in gun right issues.
00:10:09.34\00:10:11.67
I'm talking about Seventh-day
Adventist Christians.
00:10:11.71\00:10:13.58
I haven't noticed
the young people in that
00:10:13.61\00:10:14.94
have they on gun rights?
00:10:14.98\00:10:16.31
Yes.
00:10:16.34\00:10:17.68
I thought that was the
old middle age Virginia,
00:10:17.71\00:10:21.55
a good old boy or Carolina.
00:10:21.58\00:10:24.25
No, I think it's
affecting everyone.
00:10:24.29\00:10:27.09
But you know, you
have the gun rights,
00:10:27.12\00:10:30.13
you have the black lives matter,
00:10:30.16\00:10:31.63
you have a lot of these issues
00:10:31.66\00:10:35.46
that are
impacting secular society.
00:10:35.50\00:10:38.63
I believe, as Christians,
00:10:38.67\00:10:41.10
we have a very specific mission
00:10:41.14\00:10:43.27
and that is to take the
gospel to every nation, kindred,
00:10:43.30\00:10:48.21
tongue and people.
00:10:48.24\00:10:49.81
And I believe we need
to stay on point with...
00:10:49.84\00:10:53.62
And what is the gospel?
00:10:53.65\00:10:55.48
The gospel, quite
literally it's Godspeed,
00:10:55.52\00:10:58.99
a whole genuine God story,
00:10:59.02\00:11:00.59
but God's story
is the liberation
00:11:00.62\00:11:02.96
from the power of
sin that was given to us.
00:11:02.99\00:11:05.09
That's right.
00:11:05.13\00:11:06.46
That is a powerful message,
00:11:06.49\00:11:07.86
that we've been
tasked to present.
00:11:07.90\00:11:12.77
We haven't been told overthrow,
00:11:12.80\00:11:15.67
in fact the Bible
says the opposite.
00:11:15.70\00:11:17.54
It says that God sets
up and overthrows kings,
00:11:17.57\00:11:20.58
not us through our actions.
00:11:20.61\00:11:22.34
Absolutely.
00:11:22.38\00:11:24.38
And we can't directly
through political means
00:11:24.41\00:11:26.95
change a country
00:11:26.98\00:11:28.35
but as in the build up
to the American Revolution,
00:11:28.38\00:11:31.75
we know that George Wakefield
00:11:31.79\00:11:33.66
and a few other ministers
in the first grade awakening,
00:11:33.69\00:11:37.86
they really changed
the social sensibility
00:11:37.89\00:11:40.96
where there was
not only a revival
00:11:41.00\00:11:42.53
but there was such a commitment
to that individual freedom
00:11:42.56\00:11:47.77
that came with it
00:11:47.80\00:11:49.20
that on the political front
00:11:49.24\00:11:50.57
they resisted what
they saw as repression.
00:11:50.61\00:11:54.58
I'm not really saying,
I mean I gotta be careful
00:11:54.61\00:11:57.35
because I don't believe
00:11:57.38\00:11:58.81
that the religious sensibility
00:11:58.85\00:12:00.75
automatically
leads to civil rebellion.
00:12:00.78\00:12:03.15
Yes.
00:12:03.18\00:12:04.52
But there is, in
that regard, in that time,
00:12:04.55\00:12:06.49
there was a direct line between
the change in the population
00:12:06.52\00:12:10.59
through spirituality
00:12:10.63\00:12:12.09
and the way they acted.
00:12:12.13\00:12:13.46
Yeah.
00:12:13.50\00:12:14.83
And when you look at politics,
00:12:14.86\00:12:16.36
when you look at
that the world in general
00:12:16.40\00:12:19.20
much of its emphasis
is on what man can do,
00:12:19.23\00:12:22.84
what can we accomplish.
00:12:22.87\00:12:24.57
The gospel tells me
that man can do nothing
00:12:24.61\00:12:28.18
and the emphasis of the
gospels what God can do.
00:12:28.21\00:12:32.01
And so I believe that
00:12:32.05\00:12:35.35
we need to emphasize
that component much more.
00:12:35.38\00:12:40.59
I like the words
of John the Baptist,
00:12:40.62\00:12:43.19
let him increase
but he must decrease.
00:12:43.22\00:12:47.46
Absolutely.
00:12:47.50\00:12:48.83
And that's a principle
that I think should pervade
00:12:48.86\00:12:51.47
every aspect of life even
when it comes to social change.
00:12:51.50\00:12:56.24
We need to be on our knees
praying much more than we are.
00:12:56.27\00:13:00.08
We need to be
spreading the gospel message
00:13:00.11\00:13:04.11
to this world.
00:13:04.15\00:13:05.48
What I see moving towards
00:13:05.51\00:13:07.02
and I'll mention it again
00:13:07.05\00:13:09.35
I'm sure is in the early days
00:13:09.38\00:13:11.52
of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
00:13:11.55\00:13:13.15
the religious
liberty leader AT Jones
00:13:13.19\00:13:16.29
facing legislative challenges
00:13:16.32\00:13:19.16
and indeed
00:13:19.19\00:13:21.66
declining true religious
sensibility in the country,
00:13:21.70\00:13:27.40
he was convinced
that the need was revival.
00:13:27.44\00:13:31.37
And yet he also gave
testimony in congress
00:13:31.41\00:13:34.51
but the key element was
00:13:34.54\00:13:36.98
the spirituality you talk about.
00:13:37.01\00:13:38.61
Without the spirituality,
00:13:38.65\00:13:40.55
nothing happens
on religious liberty.
00:13:40.58\00:13:43.99
We're coming up to the break.
00:13:44.02\00:13:45.65
So I was about to ask
another question of my guest
00:13:45.69\00:13:48.22
but come back after the break
and hear what that question is.
00:13:48.26\00:13:52.63
Join us for this
discussion after a short break.
00:13:52.66\00:13:55.10
Thank you.
00:13:55.13\00:13:56.60