Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Andy Im
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000335B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break with guest, Andy Im, 00:11 we were really getting into the wades 00:14 of what is religious liberty for Seventh-day Adventists 00:17 and indeed all Christians 00:19 because Seventh-day Adventists 00:21 are very much a Christian community 00:23 but with an end-time consciousness and a chatter 00:29 really to prepare 00:30 people morally for the return of Christ, 00:34 which would give us an extraordinary compulsion 00:40 to change the public morality, right? 00:42 Absolutely. 00:43 And you know the Adventist history, 00:44 many of our viewers do that in the early days, 00:48 Ellen White, 00:49 one of the top pioneers of the church and a visionary, 00:53 a woman that the Lord spoke clearly through. 00:56 She was in the leading edge of the anti-alcohol movement. 01:04 And some people think, "Well, therefore we're gonna be 01:07 stopping gay behavior legally, 01:10 we're gonna be defending marriage and so on." 01:12 But it doesn't follow if you understand truly 01:15 the principle at play. 01:18 But we are concerned for public morality. 01:22 That's right. 01:23 We're concerned for it. 01:24 But you can't force it. 01:26 That's right. 01:30 And I think the danger, 01:31 if you don't mind me jumping in. 01:33 Go on, that's the whole game here. 01:34 The danger is when we enter the realm of politics, 01:40 now politics as we now is a very ugly... 01:48 system of things. 01:50 And typically, 01:52 you know the textbook definition 01:54 as according to one political theorist, 01:56 politics, it says, about who gets what. 01:59 And typically that people obtain 02:02 their wishes through, 02:05 through means or wealth, or power, 02:09 and influence and those kind of things. 02:11 And I believe, as Christians, we need to be very sensitive 02:16 and engaging in perhaps in, 02:19 what is perhaps a very incorrigible system 02:24 in and of itself where we have to do 02:27 un-Christian like things in order to achieve our end. 02:31 And I don't believe 02:33 that the end justifies any means. 02:37 You know, I don't think you resolved 02:41 as your comment makes you appear 02:42 but I can remember way back 02:44 when situation ethics was the big deal. 02:46 Yeah. 02:47 And, of course, that was sanctifying 02:49 what you just said 02:51 that the end might justify any number of means. 02:56 That's right. 02:57 Now hat right is right and wrong is wrong 02:59 and we should be plain 03:01 because the Christian world is becoming confused on this 03:04 homosexuality as well as many other things 03:07 that Paul outlines a number of times 03:09 in his epistles. 03:11 Many other aspects of modern culture, 03:14 Godless modern culture, the Bible condemns, 03:18 it says, you know, many of these things 03:20 you once were but, you know, he says don't be mistaken, 03:24 no profaner, no blasphemer, 03:26 no one like that will inherit the Kingdom of God. 03:30 We're very plain on that as a spiritual matter. 03:32 That's right. 03:34 But it's a matter of citizenship 03:35 and a common humanity. 03:37 We can't be in the business of marginalizing our fellows 03:42 and denying them 03:45 the secular expectations of commerce 03:49 and of neighborliness of civility and so on. 03:53 That's just not our business. 03:54 That's right and I... 03:56 And yet a lot of it goes under the guise of religious liberty. 03:59 I'm gonna stop you because I, this is my religious viewpoint. 04:03 I will not allow you to be as 04:05 you are or I won't deal with you, 04:08 go elsewhere for your medicines, 04:09 go elsewhere for your cake or whatever you want. 04:11 That's right. Very un-Christian. 04:13 It is. 04:14 I have a quote from Martin Luther 04:17 the great reformer we're coming upon 04:20 the emphasis on the reformation history. 04:24 And I want to read this quote, 04:26 he says, "We are subject to governmental power 04:29 and do what it bids 04:31 as long as it does not bind our conscience, 04:34 but legislates only concerning outward matters, 04:38 civil matters and so forth. 04:40 But," he says, "if it invades the spiritual domain 04:45 and constrains the conscience over which only, 04:48 which God only must preside and rule, 04:51 we should not obey it at all but rather lose our necks." 04:55 And that's rather strong language. 04:58 Which Luther was good at. 05:00 Yes, you're right, exactly. Exactly, so we... 05:03 Some of his strong language resulted 05:05 in the peasants rebellion and laid the groundwork 05:08 even for the Nazis hatred of the Jews. 05:12 But... That's right. 05:13 It's a great spiritual truth play there 05:16 and that's a wonderful quote. 05:17 Yes. 05:19 So we need to be, you know, very cautious as Christians 05:24 not to employ methods 05:26 that the secular world is utilizing 05:30 to achieve our ends. 05:32 I think it's one of the hymns, 05:33 it says, "Deeds of love and mercy". 05:36 And we need to be merciful to all people 05:41 because we expect mercy from God. 05:43 Absolutely. 05:44 We've been granted this wonderful provision 05:48 that we take advantage of. 05:49 But the provision's available to everybody. 05:51 That's right. 05:52 You come under the grace that God laid out. 05:57 It doesn't matter if you're a homosexual, 05:59 a murderer, or whatever, there's redemption. 06:02 That's right. 06:04 While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. 06:08 Absolutely. 06:09 And I include myself right there. 06:13 So back to the conundrum, 06:16 why is it that so many Christians, 06:20 good Christians, in the United States, 06:24 as the Bible says, 06:26 who sigh and cry for the abominations 06:28 in the land, 06:29 why are they so ready to use 06:32 the power of the civil government 06:36 to restrain 06:37 the evil that they object to? 06:42 You know, it's a really, to me, it's a spiritual question. 06:46 I believe that there is much in this, 06:50 in our society that's masquerading 06:53 with the label of Christianity 06:55 but lacks the substance of Christianity. 06:59 Well, the Bible says that 07:02 having the form of Godliness but lacking the power. 07:06 That's right. 07:07 And what I, I'll say it again 07:09 because it's one of my best things. 07:11 But, you know, 07:13 I believe there's way too much religion in the world 07:15 but not enough spirituality. 07:16 That's right. 07:18 And the structure of religion can confuse people. 07:22 The structure of religion is almost 07:25 the plaything of the devil. 07:26 It's not devilish 07:27 but the devil can play havoc with the church 07:31 that is just structure 07:33 and doesn't have the heart change 07:34 and the sentiments of Godliness. 07:38 Yeah, and I want to bounce off that. 07:40 I mean, the battle we're in, the great controversy, 07:45 is ultimately... 07:46 You better spell it out 07:48 'cause not all of our viewers might know. 07:49 Well, yes. 07:51 The Seventh-day Adventist particularly 07:52 is the same as a great battle between God and goodness, 07:57 and Satan the antagonist, and the evil principle, 08:00 which is out to bring down the whole universe. 08:04 That's right, and I believe we need to keep in mind 08:06 that this is a spiritual battle. 08:08 It's a battle for hearts and minds that cannot be won 08:12 through a force of arms. 08:14 And ultimately, I believe, 08:16 and John Howard Yoder a Quaker from years ago, 08:22 he made a very important point that we cannot enter 08:27 the realm of power in order to attain our ends. 08:32 And notice what Jesus did, He died. 08:36 He could have joined the Zealot movement of His day. 08:39 He could have joined 08:41 some of these political movements 08:43 to achieve a desired end 08:46 that had nationalistic tendencies. 08:48 Well, remember He said that to Pilate, 08:51 He says, "My kingdom is not of this world." 08:53 He says, "If it was, my fellows would fight for me." 08:56 Yes. 08:57 So He'd obviously thought about it. 08:59 Yes. 09:00 And, in fact, I'm inclined to think 09:01 He debated the idea in the upper realm 09:05 they were He says, He got swords. 09:06 Yeah. 09:08 And here's a few, that's enough. 09:09 That's right. 09:10 And then Peter pulled it out 09:12 but then Jesus made it very clear, 09:14 "Take the sword, you die by the sword." 09:16 And in some ways I think political action is the sword 09:19 because there's consequences. 09:21 You make political enemies. 09:22 They've often said 09:24 that war is politics by other means. 09:25 I think that's the way around it is. 09:27 But politics frustrated turns into war 09:30 because that's the same antagonism. 09:32 Yeah. 09:34 And we don't want to make political enemies. 09:37 We want to make friends in the community 09:40 and attract and encourage people 09:43 toward a new lifestyle. 09:45 That's right. That's right. 09:48 So while we're back to Seventh-day Adventist, 09:51 but let's take it wider. 09:52 Sure. 09:54 We've already sort of condemned, 09:56 well, not condemned but tut-tutted 09:58 some of our fellow Christians 10:00 who have the same concerns that we do, 10:03 and they've picked up the sword of political action. 10:08 But, you know, taking it broader 10:09 beyond the United States 10:11 because religious liberty is not just a US thing. 10:14 You know what's the world to do 10:16 when it's obvious that 10:17 there's moral decline on every hand 10:22 and religion seems to be, 10:25 it's gone toxic? 10:28 And particularly Islam, you know that, 10:31 people might not have thought about it 10:33 but its there to see that Islam is constantly moralizing. 10:37 They are troubled by not just the homosexuality, 10:40 the immorality, even the doctrines, 10:43 the Trinity and so on of Christianity. 10:45 And they want to morally sweep it clean, 10:47 of course, with the sword. 10:49 You know, where's the world to go on this? 10:52 What's the role of true religious liberty 10:54 in this sort of a world situation? 10:58 Is it an answer? 11:00 Can we appeal to religious liberty 11:01 or is it too far gone? 11:04 That's a very good question, I don't know... 11:06 And you've got 30 seconds. 11:08 That's a very challenging question 11:14 and perhaps if you could hone it 11:17 make it little more specific. 11:20 Well, maybe I'm looking for 11:22 some sort of an aspiration or conclusion to this 11:24 because we can't solve all of these things. 11:26 But it seems to me 11:28 we've got to not be running after these will-o'-the-wisps 11:32 as Christians and the citizens, 11:34 we can forget our calling as it says, 11:38 and we could go for politics, we can go for the, 11:40 but we need to narrow it down to, 11:43 as Paul says, to know Jesus and Him crucified. 11:46 And on religious liberty, it needs to, 11:48 we just need to be fixated 11:50 on defending the rights of others 11:53 to believe us as they see fit 11:55 as we would expect others to grant to us. 11:58 That's right, 11:59 and I believe that it's crucial for us to protect 12:06 not just my own religious convictions 12:09 but those of other faiths even atheists. 12:13 I believe that 12:14 they have a more right to believe as they do. 12:18 And when I'm protecting that individual, 12:22 I believe I'm also working on the side of God 12:25 in protecting the freedom of conscience 12:29 for all individuals 12:30 because it is a God-given right for us to believe 12:34 as our conscience dictates. 12:37 There's a classic scene 12:39 from a rather quaint science fiction 12:44 adaptation of a book of recent years 12:47 called "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". 12:51 And in this scene, 12:52 the hero of the series is standing 12:56 on the Brighton Pier supposedly, 12:59 looking out over the ocean with a lovely sky above it. 13:02 And he says to his fellow, "Isn't it wonderful?" 13:04 He says, "It looks so beautiful." 13:05 He says, "But it's a little odd 13:08 that the sky is coming in and out with waves." 13:11 In other words, 13:13 the sky and the sea were reversed. 13:15 Reality was turned on its head. 13:18 For many of us living today, this is our reality. 13:23 Night has became day, good has become bad. 13:27 What was once simple has become confusing. 13:31 Religious liberty is not immune to that. 13:34 A lot of what past is for religious liberty 13:37 is entitlement. 13:38 A lot of what past is for religious liberty 13:40 is actually 13:42 a very aggressive actions against other religions. 13:46 Some people that are put up 13:48 as champions of religious liberty 13:49 are anything but. 13:51 One way to see through this is to define clearly 13:56 what religious liberty really is. 14:00 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2017-01-30