Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:00:05.00\00:00:07.37
Before the break
with guest, Andy Im,
00:00:07.40\00:00:10.97
we were really
getting into the wades
00:00:11.01\00:00:14.24
of what is religious liberty
for Seventh-day Adventists
00:00:14.28\00:00:17.38
and indeed all Christians
00:00:17.41\00:00:19.88
because Seventh-day Adventists
00:00:19.91\00:00:21.95
are very much a
Christian community
00:00:21.98\00:00:23.89
but with an end-time
consciousness and a chatter
00:00:23.92\00:00:29.02
really to prepare
00:00:29.06\00:00:30.83
people morally for
the return of Christ,
00:00:30.86\00:00:34.00
which would give us an
extraordinary compulsion
00:00:34.03\00:00:40.14
to change the
public morality, right?
00:00:40.17\00:00:42.20
Absolutely.
00:00:42.24\00:00:43.57
And you know the
Adventist history,
00:00:43.61\00:00:44.94
many of our viewers do
that in the early days,
00:00:44.97\00:00:48.14
Ellen White,
00:00:48.18\00:00:49.51
one of the top pioneers of
the church and a visionary,
00:00:49.54\00:00:53.11
a woman that the Lord
spoke clearly through.
00:00:53.15\00:00:56.15
She was in the leading edge
of the anti-alcohol movement.
00:00:56.18\00:01:01.62
And some people think,
"Well, therefore we're gonna be
00:01:04.99\00:01:07.90
stopping gay behavior legally,
00:01:07.93\00:01:10.03
we're gonna be
defending marriage and so on."
00:01:10.07\00:01:12.33
But it doesn't follow
if you understand truly
00:01:12.37\00:01:15.87
the principle at play.
00:01:15.90\00:01:18.24
But we are
concerned for public morality.
00:01:18.27\00:01:21.98
That's right.
00:01:22.01\00:01:23.35
We're concerned for it.
00:01:23.38\00:01:24.75
But you can't force it.
00:01:24.78\00:01:26.82
That's right.
00:01:26.85\00:01:30.02
And I think the danger,
00:01:30.05\00:01:31.65
if you don't mind me jumping in.
00:01:31.69\00:01:33.02
Go on, that's
the whole game here.
00:01:33.05\00:01:34.82
The danger is when we
enter the realm of politics,
00:01:34.86\00:01:40.70
now politics as we
now is a very ugly...
00:01:40.73\00:01:45.33
system of things.
00:01:48.60\00:01:50.47
And typically,
00:01:50.51\00:01:52.41
you know the textbook definition
00:01:52.44\00:01:54.04
as according to
one political theorist,
00:01:54.08\00:01:56.91
politics, it says,
about who gets what.
00:01:56.95\00:01:59.65
And typically that people obtain
00:01:59.68\00:02:02.75
their wishes through,
00:02:02.78\00:02:05.09
through means or
wealth, or power,
00:02:05.12\00:02:09.06
and influence and
those kind of things.
00:02:09.09\00:02:11.63
And I believe, as Christians,
we need to be very sensitive
00:02:11.66\00:02:16.03
and engaging in perhaps in,
00:02:16.06\00:02:19.27
what is perhaps a
very incorrigible system
00:02:19.30\00:02:24.14
in and of itself
where we have to do
00:02:24.17\00:02:27.58
un-Christian like things
in order to achieve our end.
00:02:27.61\00:02:31.91
And I don't believe
00:02:31.95\00:02:33.85
that the end
justifies any means.
00:02:33.88\00:02:37.89
You know, I don't
think you resolved
00:02:37.92\00:02:41.06
as your comment makes you appear
00:02:41.09\00:02:42.52
but I can remember way back
00:02:42.56\00:02:44.13
when situation
ethics was the big deal.
00:02:44.16\00:02:46.26
Yeah.
00:02:46.29\00:02:47.63
And, of course,
that was sanctifying
00:02:47.66\00:02:49.80
what you just said
00:02:49.83\00:02:51.17
that the end might
justify any number of means.
00:02:51.20\00:02:56.27
That's right.
00:02:56.30\00:02:57.64
Now hat right is
right and wrong is wrong
00:02:57.67\00:02:59.51
and we should be plain
00:02:59.54\00:03:01.48
because the Christian world
is becoming confused on this
00:03:01.51\00:03:04.95
homosexuality as
well as many other things
00:03:04.98\00:03:07.68
that Paul
outlines a number of times
00:03:07.72\00:03:09.78
in his epistles.
00:03:09.82\00:03:11.15
Many other
aspects of modern culture,
00:03:11.19\00:03:14.42
Godless modern
culture, the Bible condemns,
00:03:14.46\00:03:18.39
it says, you know,
many of these things
00:03:18.43\00:03:20.93
you once were but, you
know, he says don't be mistaken,
00:03:20.96\00:03:23.97
no profaner, no blasphemer,
00:03:24.00\00:03:26.90
no one like that will
inherit the Kingdom of God.
00:03:26.94\00:03:30.17
We're very plain on
that as a spiritual matter.
00:03:30.21\00:03:32.81
That's right.
00:03:32.84\00:03:34.18
But it's a matter of citizenship
00:03:34.21\00:03:35.54
and a common humanity.
00:03:35.58\00:03:37.91
We can't be in the business
of marginalizing our fellows
00:03:37.95\00:03:42.58
and denying them
00:03:42.62\00:03:45.02
the secular
expectations of commerce
00:03:45.05\00:03:49.79
and of neighborliness
of civility and so on.
00:03:49.82\00:03:53.33
That's just not our business.
00:03:53.36\00:03:54.70
That's right and I...
00:03:54.73\00:03:56.06
And yet a lot of it goes under
the guise of religious liberty.
00:03:56.10\00:03:59.33
I'm gonna stop you because I,
this is my religious viewpoint.
00:03:59.37\00:04:02.97
I will not allow you to be as
00:04:03.00\00:04:05.77
you are or I
won't deal with you,
00:04:05.81\00:04:07.98
go elsewhere for your medicines,
00:04:08.01\00:04:09.48
go elsewhere for your
cake or whatever you want.
00:04:09.51\00:04:11.78
That's right. Very un-Christian.
00:04:11.81\00:04:13.18
It is.
00:04:13.21\00:04:14.55
I have a quote
from Martin Luther
00:04:14.58\00:04:17.29
the great
reformer we're coming upon
00:04:17.32\00:04:20.92
the emphasis on the
reformation history.
00:04:20.96\00:04:24.93
And I want to read this quote,
00:04:24.96\00:04:26.66
he says, "We are
subject to governmental power
00:04:26.70\00:04:29.73
and do what it bids
00:04:29.76\00:04:31.77
as long as it does
not bind our conscience,
00:04:31.80\00:04:34.90
but legislates only
concerning outward matters,
00:04:34.94\00:04:38.61
civil matters and so forth.
00:04:38.64\00:04:40.91
But," he says, "if it
invades the spiritual domain
00:04:40.94\00:04:45.11
and constrains the
conscience over which only,
00:04:45.15\00:04:48.22
which God only
must preside and rule,
00:04:48.25\00:04:51.02
we should not obey it at
all but rather lose our necks."
00:04:51.05\00:04:55.62
And that's
rather strong language.
00:04:55.66\00:04:58.43
Which Luther was good at.
00:04:58.46\00:05:00.43
Yes, you're right,
exactly. Exactly, so we...
00:05:00.46\00:05:03.67
Some of his
strong language resulted
00:05:03.70\00:05:05.47
in the peasants rebellion
and laid the groundwork
00:05:05.50\00:05:08.90
even for the Nazis
hatred of the Jews.
00:05:08.94\00:05:12.21
But... That's right.
00:05:12.24\00:05:13.58
It's a great
spiritual truth play there
00:05:13.61\00:05:16.18
and that's a wonderful quote.
00:05:16.21\00:05:17.65
Yes.
00:05:17.68\00:05:19.01
So we need to be, you know,
very cautious as Christians
00:05:19.05\00:05:24.82
not to employ methods
00:05:24.85\00:05:26.76
that the secular
world is utilizing
00:05:26.79\00:05:30.09
to achieve our ends.
00:05:30.13\00:05:32.49
I think it's one of the hymns,
00:05:32.53\00:05:33.86
it says, "Deeds
of love and mercy".
00:05:33.90\00:05:36.53
And we need to be
merciful to all people
00:05:36.56\00:05:41.07
because we
expect mercy from God.
00:05:41.10\00:05:43.41
Absolutely.
00:05:43.44\00:05:44.77
We've been granted
this wonderful provision
00:05:44.81\00:05:48.44
that we take advantage of.
00:05:48.48\00:05:49.81
But the provision's
available to everybody.
00:05:49.84\00:05:51.48
That's right.
00:05:51.51\00:05:52.85
You come under the
grace that God laid out.
00:05:52.88\00:05:57.15
It doesn't matter
if you're a homosexual,
00:05:57.19\00:05:59.79
a murderer, or
whatever, there's redemption.
00:05:59.82\00:06:02.39
That's right.
00:06:02.42\00:06:04.23
While we were yet sinners,
Christ died for the ungodly.
00:06:04.26\00:06:08.46
Absolutely.
00:06:08.50\00:06:09.86
And I include
myself right there.
00:06:09.90\00:06:13.84
So back to the conundrum,
00:06:13.87\00:06:16.60
why is it that
so many Christians,
00:06:16.64\00:06:20.18
good Christians,
in the United States,
00:06:20.21\00:06:24.68
as the Bible says,
00:06:24.71\00:06:26.05
who sigh and cry
for the abominations
00:06:26.08\00:06:28.55
in the land,
00:06:28.58\00:06:29.92
why are they so ready to use
00:06:29.95\00:06:32.85
the power of
the civil government
00:06:32.89\00:06:36.12
to restrain
00:06:36.16\00:06:37.89
the evil that they object to?
00:06:37.93\00:06:42.10
You know, it's a really, to
me, it's a spiritual question.
00:06:42.13\00:06:46.94
I believe that
there is much in this,
00:06:46.97\00:06:50.44
in our society
that's masquerading
00:06:50.47\00:06:53.31
with the label of Christianity
00:06:53.34\00:06:55.81
but lacks the
substance of Christianity.
00:06:55.84\00:06:59.48
Well, the Bible says that
00:06:59.51\00:07:02.52
having the form of
Godliness but lacking the power.
00:07:02.55\00:07:06.55
That's right.
00:07:06.59\00:07:07.96
And what I, I'll say it again
00:07:07.99\00:07:09.82
because it's one
of my best things.
00:07:09.86\00:07:11.76
But, you know,
00:07:11.79\00:07:13.13
I believe there's way too
much religion in the world
00:07:13.16\00:07:15.33
but not enough spirituality.
00:07:15.36\00:07:16.70
That's right.
00:07:16.73\00:07:18.07
And the structure of
religion can confuse people.
00:07:18.10\00:07:22.50
The structure of
religion is almost
00:07:22.54\00:07:25.01
the plaything of the devil.
00:07:25.04\00:07:26.41
It's not devilish
00:07:26.44\00:07:27.94
but the devil can
play havoc with the church
00:07:27.98\00:07:31.41
that is just structure
00:07:31.45\00:07:33.05
and doesn't
have the heart change
00:07:33.08\00:07:34.85
and the sentiments of Godliness.
00:07:34.88\00:07:38.72
Yeah, and I want
to bounce off that.
00:07:38.75\00:07:40.16
I mean, the battle we're
in, the great controversy,
00:07:40.19\00:07:44.99
is ultimately...
00:07:45.03\00:07:46.86
You better spell it out
00:07:46.90\00:07:48.23
'cause not all of
our viewers might know.
00:07:48.26\00:07:49.60
Well, yes.
00:07:49.63\00:07:50.97
The Seventh-day
Adventist particularly
00:07:51.00\00:07:52.33
is the same as a great
battle between God and goodness,
00:07:52.37\00:07:57.07
and Satan the antagonist,
and the evil principle,
00:07:57.11\00:08:00.91
which is out to bring
down the whole universe.
00:08:00.94\00:08:04.08
That's right, and I
believe we need to keep in mind
00:08:04.11\00:08:06.68
that this is a spiritual battle.
00:08:06.72\00:08:08.85
It's a battle for hearts
and minds that cannot be won
00:08:08.88\00:08:12.59
through a force of arms.
00:08:12.62\00:08:14.76
And ultimately, I believe,
00:08:14.79\00:08:16.96
and John Howard Yoder
a Quaker from years ago,
00:08:16.99\00:08:22.56
he made a very important
point that we cannot enter
00:08:22.60\00:08:27.90
the realm of power in
order to attain our ends.
00:08:27.94\00:08:32.87
And notice what
Jesus did, He died.
00:08:32.91\00:08:36.11
He could have joined the
Zealot movement of His day.
00:08:36.14\00:08:39.65
He could have joined
00:08:39.68\00:08:41.02
some of these
political movements
00:08:41.05\00:08:43.22
to achieve a desired end
00:08:43.25\00:08:46.05
that had
nationalistic tendencies.
00:08:46.09\00:08:48.86
Well, remember He
said that to Pilate,
00:08:48.89\00:08:51.63
He says, "My kingdom
is not of this world."
00:08:51.66\00:08:53.46
He says, "If it was, my
fellows would fight for me."
00:08:53.50\00:08:56.03
Yes.
00:08:56.06\00:08:57.40
So He'd
obviously thought about it.
00:08:57.43\00:08:59.03
Yes.
00:08:59.07\00:09:00.40
And, in fact,
I'm inclined to think
00:09:00.44\00:09:01.94
He debated the
idea in the upper realm
00:09:01.97\00:09:05.37
they were He
says, He got swords.
00:09:05.41\00:09:06.81
Yeah.
00:09:06.84\00:09:08.18
And here's a few, that's enough.
00:09:08.21\00:09:09.58
That's right.
00:09:09.61\00:09:10.95
And then Peter pulled it out
00:09:10.98\00:09:12.38
but then Jesus
made it very clear,
00:09:12.41\00:09:14.38
"Take the sword,
you die by the sword."
00:09:14.42\00:09:16.32
And in some ways I think
political action is the sword
00:09:16.35\00:09:19.39
because there's consequences.
00:09:19.42\00:09:21.36
You make political enemies.
00:09:21.39\00:09:22.72
They've often said
00:09:22.76\00:09:24.09
that war is
politics by other means.
00:09:24.13\00:09:25.93
I think that's
the way around it is.
00:09:25.96\00:09:27.40
But politics
frustrated turns into war
00:09:27.43\00:09:30.80
because that's
the same antagonism.
00:09:30.83\00:09:32.83
Yeah.
00:09:32.87\00:09:34.20
And we don't want to
make political enemies.
00:09:34.24\00:09:37.61
We want to make
friends in the community
00:09:37.64\00:09:40.78
and attract and encourage people
00:09:40.81\00:09:43.58
toward a new lifestyle.
00:09:43.61\00:09:45.51
That's right. That's right.
00:09:45.55\00:09:48.65
So while we're back
to Seventh-day Adventist,
00:09:48.68\00:09:51.45
but let's take it wider.
00:09:51.49\00:09:52.82
Sure.
00:09:52.85\00:09:54.19
We've already sort of condemned,
00:09:54.22\00:09:56.26
well, not
condemned but tut-tutted
00:09:56.29\00:09:58.36
some of our fellow Christians
00:09:58.39\00:10:00.33
who have the same
concerns that we do,
00:10:00.36\00:10:03.80
and they've picked up the
sword of political action.
00:10:03.83\00:10:08.20
But, you know, taking it broader
00:10:08.24\00:10:09.80
beyond the United States
00:10:09.84\00:10:11.17
because religious
liberty is not just a US thing.
00:10:11.21\00:10:14.38
You know what's the world to do
00:10:14.41\00:10:16.21
when it's obvious that
00:10:16.24\00:10:17.58
there's moral
decline on every hand
00:10:17.61\00:10:21.98
and religion seems to be,
00:10:22.02\00:10:25.39
it's gone toxic?
00:10:25.42\00:10:28.76
And particularly
Islam, you know that,
00:10:28.79\00:10:31.66
people might not
have thought about it
00:10:31.69\00:10:33.33
but its there to see that
Islam is constantly moralizing.
00:10:33.36\00:10:37.67
They are troubled by
not just the homosexuality,
00:10:37.70\00:10:40.14
the immorality,
even the doctrines,
00:10:40.17\00:10:43.27
the Trinity and so
on of Christianity.
00:10:43.30\00:10:45.21
And they want to
morally sweep it clean,
00:10:45.24\00:10:47.71
of course, with the sword.
00:10:47.74\00:10:49.94
You know, where's
the world to go on this?
00:10:49.98\00:10:52.35
What's the role of
true religious liberty
00:10:52.38\00:10:54.82
in this sort of
a world situation?
00:10:54.85\00:10:58.65
Is it an answer?
00:10:58.69\00:11:00.02
Can we appeal to
religious liberty
00:11:00.06\00:11:01.59
or is it too far gone?
00:11:01.62\00:11:04.69
That's a very good
question, I don't know...
00:11:04.73\00:11:06.36
And you've got 30 seconds.
00:11:06.39\00:11:08.26
That's a very
challenging question
00:11:08.30\00:11:14.74
and perhaps if you could hone it
00:11:14.77\00:11:17.14
make it little more specific.
00:11:17.17\00:11:20.44
Well, maybe I'm looking for
00:11:20.48\00:11:22.18
some sort of an
aspiration or conclusion to this
00:11:22.21\00:11:24.78
because we can't
solve all of these things.
00:11:24.81\00:11:26.65
But it seems to me
00:11:26.68\00:11:28.15
we've got to not be running
after these will-o'-the-wisps
00:11:28.18\00:11:32.92
as Christians and the citizens,
00:11:32.95\00:11:34.39
we can forget our
calling as it says,
00:11:34.42\00:11:38.39
and we could go for
politics, we can go for the,
00:11:38.43\00:11:40.86
but we need to
narrow it down to,
00:11:40.90\00:11:42.96
as Paul says, to know
Jesus and Him crucified.
00:11:43.00\00:11:46.70
And on religious
liberty, it needs to,
00:11:46.74\00:11:48.60
we just need to be fixated
00:11:48.64\00:11:50.41
on defending
the rights of others
00:11:50.44\00:11:53.38
to believe us as they see fit
00:11:53.41\00:11:55.81
as we would expect
others to grant to us.
00:11:55.84\00:11:58.35
That's right,
00:11:58.38\00:11:59.71
and I believe that it's
crucial for us to protect
00:11:59.75\00:12:06.05
not just my own
religious convictions
00:12:06.09\00:12:09.56
but those of other
faiths even atheists.
00:12:09.59\00:12:13.06
I believe that
00:12:13.09\00:12:14.43
they have a more
right to believe as they do.
00:12:14.46\00:12:18.93
And when I'm
protecting that individual,
00:12:18.97\00:12:22.40
I believe I'm also
working on the side of God
00:12:22.44\00:12:25.64
in protecting the
freedom of conscience
00:12:25.67\00:12:29.04
for all individuals
00:12:29.08\00:12:30.58
because it is a God-given
right for us to believe
00:12:30.61\00:12:34.02
as our conscience dictates.
00:12:34.05\00:12:37.62
There's a classic scene
00:12:37.65\00:12:39.32
from a rather
quaint science fiction
00:12:39.35\00:12:44.49
adaptation of a
book of recent years
00:12:44.53\00:12:47.76
called "The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy".
00:12:47.80\00:12:51.13
And in this scene,
00:12:51.17\00:12:52.50
the hero of the
series is standing
00:12:52.53\00:12:56.64
on the Brighton Pier supposedly,
00:12:56.67\00:12:58.97
looking out over the ocean
with a lovely sky above it.
00:12:59.01\00:13:02.28
And he says to his
fellow, "Isn't it wonderful?"
00:13:02.31\00:13:04.41
He says, "It
looks so beautiful."
00:13:04.45\00:13:05.78
He says, "But it's a little odd
00:13:05.81\00:13:08.25
that the sky is coming
in and out with waves."
00:13:08.28\00:13:11.89
In other words,
00:13:11.92\00:13:13.25
the sky and the
sea were reversed.
00:13:13.29\00:13:15.19
Reality was turned on its head.
00:13:15.22\00:13:17.99
For many of us living
today, this is our reality.
00:13:18.03\00:13:23.47
Night has became
day, good has become bad.
00:13:23.50\00:13:27.14
What was once simple
has become confusing.
00:13:27.17\00:13:31.04
Religious liberty
is not immune to that.
00:13:31.07\00:13:34.21
A lot of what past
is for religious liberty
00:13:34.24\00:13:36.98
is entitlement.
00:13:37.01\00:13:38.41
A lot of what past
is for religious liberty
00:13:38.45\00:13:40.65
is actually
00:13:40.68\00:13:42.02
a very aggressive
actions against other religions.
00:13:42.05\00:13:46.96
Some people that are put up
00:13:46.99\00:13:48.32
as champions of
religious liberty
00:13:48.36\00:13:49.92
are anything but.
00:13:49.96\00:13:51.89
One way to see through
this is to define clearly
00:13:51.93\00:13:56.20
what religious
liberty really is.
00:13:56.23\00:14:00.34
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:14:00.37\00:14:04.21