Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Andy Im
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000335A
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00:29 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:31 This is the program bringing you news, views, 00:34 and up-to-date information on religious liberty in the US 00:37 and indeed around the world. 00:39 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:43 And my guest on this program is Andy Im. 00:48 Welcome, Andy. It's good to be here. 00:50 For our guest's information, 00:52 you are communication director 00:54 for the Michigan Conference of Seventh-day Adventist. 00:58 Even more important from my understanding is 01:01 you are very much involved with campus ministry. 01:03 Yes. 01:05 With young people. 01:06 And you've been religion lecturer 01:09 at a self-supporting college. 01:11 Yeah. 01:12 So you've got wide experience 01:14 and I know from talking to you already, 01:15 you have some insights into religious liberty dynamics 01:21 that I think we need to discuss. 01:22 Sure. 01:24 Now, you and I both Seventh-day Adventist. 01:25 Yes. 01:27 Seventh-day Adventists have had 01:29 a long history of religious liberty concerns, 01:31 haven't we? 01:33 We have, yes. Why? 01:34 Why do you think it's so important 01:35 for Seventh-day Adventist? 01:37 Well, I think it's very important 01:39 for Seventh-day Adventist 01:40 simply because we worship on a day 01:43 that the evangelical community 01:46 does not worship on, 01:48 which is the seventh day, the Saturday or Sabbath. 01:51 And so it's very important to us 01:55 that we have the freedom to worship on the day 01:58 that we believe is biblical 02:01 and also we wanna protect that religious freedom. 02:06 Not just for us as Seventh-day Adventist, 02:09 I believe that the freedom of conscience is a principle 02:14 that extends even beyond. 02:17 So there's an altruism that comes from 02:19 that biblical perspective. 02:21 Absolutely, absolutely. 02:24 Now, I'll play the devil side to get it more. 02:28 Sure, sure. 02:29 To be accommodated because we're different, 02:32 that's really not quite religious liberty, 02:35 that's, 02:38 that is religious accommodation 02:40 or religious privilege if you like. 02:42 Yes. 02:44 What's the difference? 02:46 What is religious liberty? 02:48 This is what I'm trying to get 02:50 an awful lot of our peers. 02:52 Yes. 02:53 And I think many of our Christian brother 02:55 and sisters out there 02:56 and perhaps even others of other religions, 02:59 they think religious liberty is a structural thing, 03:02 getting the right to do 03:03 what I want to do in the community. 03:06 In the US the constitution makes that easier. 03:09 But is that really 03:11 what religious liberty is about, 03:13 a legal construct 03:14 or a rights oriented 03:18 construct? 03:21 I don't like the word 'right' 03:23 when I think of religious liberty. 03:27 I think of it in the context of liberty of conscience. 03:32 Meaning that I believe that 03:35 it's a God given reality 03:40 for each individual to choose, 03:42 I think, I believe that freewill 03:45 is a very important notion that involves religious liberty 03:50 because it gives or provides every individual 03:55 the opportunity to follow through 03:57 his or her own conviction. 03:59 And I don't know 04:01 if that's quite answering your question, 04:03 maybe you're gonna have to get a little more specific. 04:05 I'm setting up not road blocks 04:07 but the things we need to deal with. 04:09 You know, the US Constitution, famously and admirably, 04:13 it speaks about inalienable rights by creator, 04:19 doesn't really spell out 04:22 whether it's talking about the God of the Old 04:24 or the New Testaments or indeed anything 04:27 other than just sort of deity 04:30 that could cover pagan and Christian deities. 04:35 But it does give it a sort of a divine attribute 04:40 and I think that's very close to the truth, isn't it? 04:42 It is. 04:44 Because a Bible believing person has to believe 04:46 that goes right back to the creator. 04:48 It's harder to prove it seems to me from Christian 04:51 and religious history 04:53 because mostly through the ages 04:55 religious leaders didn't grant conscience rights to people. 05:00 Yes, and you make a very important point. 05:03 I believe, for example, 05:06 I think it's one thing in terms of 05:09 my own religious conviction not to 05:12 and I'm an ordain minister, so I may refuse. 05:16 Me too by the way. 05:18 Yes. 05:19 Well, praise the Lord. 05:22 I may choose not to marry an LGBT couple, 05:28 if you will. 05:30 Having said that if I owned a grocery market 05:32 or a store I certainly, 05:36 I think that's a different issue, 05:38 I certainly would have no problem 05:41 in selling a product, 05:43 you know, an item for them to eat or and so forth. 05:47 Well, you're jumping into a contemporary issue 05:49 that I might have wanted to cover on another issue, 05:51 another program, but that's a good point. 05:53 Yes. 05:54 And that's exactly how I see it 05:56 but it's not my view. 05:58 And I don't think it's just your view, 05:59 this is a thoroughly biblical view. 06:00 Yes. 06:02 We can't, as it says God is no respecter of persons. 06:05 That's right. 06:06 It's not given to us 06:08 to cast someone into outer darkness 06:09 because they're different from us. 06:10 Yes. 06:12 And God will ultimately reject people 06:14 because of a bad decision 06:16 but he doesn't cast them away 06:18 or take away their right to choose 06:20 because they're gonna chose wrongly. 06:21 No. 06:23 As a matter of fact. 06:24 So they have every right, as much right as you or I. 06:25 That's right, as a matter of fact 06:27 the later part of Matthew 5 speaks to this issue 06:31 when Jesus describing the father, 06:34 states very explicitly that he causes the rain 06:36 and the sunshine 06:38 to fall on both the just and the unjust. 06:41 And that's not condoning the unjust behavior 06:45 but nevertheless God extends his graces 06:49 to all of humanity 06:51 so that they can make choices to serve a God, 06:55 you know, serve him or to reject him. 06:59 And he gives us that freedom to do so. 07:02 Back to the principle of religious liberty, 07:05 and I'm trying to make not so much a distinction 07:07 but make clear religious liberty, 07:11 biblical religious liberty, 07:13 is something distinct from enlightenment, 07:15 self-determination which is good 07:19 and as enabled religious liberty 07:22 but it's not the source of it. 07:25 There's no question 07:27 that around the time of the reformation 07:31 there was a general opening of human understanding 07:34 in the sense of the autonomy of the individual 07:37 which was historically anomalous. 07:39 Yes. 07:41 And they developed the idea 07:43 that as that poem Invictus says, 07:45 I'm the master of my soul and my destiny. 07:48 Well, that hadn't been evident in society 07:51 or religion to that point. 07:53 And some elements of it can really lead to sort of 07:57 shaking your fist at God 07:59 as they did in the French Revolution. 08:00 But I think it was wonderfully enabling 08:03 and inform the constitution which in spite of what some of 08:06 our fellow residents in the US think. 08:11 It's not biblically based, it's a secular construct. 08:16 But it definitely empowered the practice of 08:21 what is really a more true biblical religious liberty. 08:24 The idea, and I say this a lot, 08:27 that we have been liberated by the life 08:30 and sacrifice and resurrection of Christ, 08:32 liberated from the power of sin. 08:34 That is the true liberty I suppose, 08:36 it's a gospel of liberty, right? 08:38 Absolutely. 08:39 And we're proclaiming that, I'm free. 08:40 Yeah. 08:42 The constitution doesn't give it or can it, 08:43 nor can it take it away. 08:45 No, absolutely not. 08:47 And so once you see it on that level, 08:48 I think it turns into a little different direction. 08:50 Yes. 08:52 And now back to Seventh-day Adventist. 08:53 Do you think we're in danger of sort of seeing it internally 08:57 and just while we get accommodation 08:59 in the workplace 09:01 and maybe some tax deductions 09:05 and so on for ourselves or our institutions 09:07 and then we're happy? 09:09 Yeah. Does it go beyond that? 09:12 I do believe it goes beyond that. 09:15 Ultimately the way that I see religious liberty, 09:20 and you hit it right on the nail 09:22 is a God given right for us 09:25 to choose who our creator is and so forth. 09:30 Another thing that I'd like to also bring out is 09:34 that in society today 09:36 you have really too conflicting world views. 09:42 You have more of a secular world view 09:45 that's really pushing very aggressively their agenda 09:48 whether it'd be, you know, much of it deals 09:51 with sexuality and so forth. 09:53 I think the danger for us as Seventh-day Adventist 09:57 is to react in kind using the same methodology 10:02 as our secular brothers and sisters are doing. 10:05 Because we may be about homosexual, not-- 10:10 We may oppose homosexuality, same-sex marriage, 10:13 and some of these issues 10:15 because the Bible speaks out against it. 10:17 Having said that, I think it's very dangerous 10:21 when we as Seventh-day Adventist 10:23 get into this mentality and push morality in the way 10:29 that secular society does. 10:31 I believe true transformation or true change 10:35 does not come from any enactments any legislation 10:40 but through the Holy Spirit who truly gives us freedom. 10:44 And you touched upon that earlier, 10:46 he frees us from the bondage of sin 10:49 only conversion talked about 10:53 in John 3 is the remedy, 10:56 it's the true remedy for society's evils. 10:59 Well, you've also have touched, talking about touching on, 11:01 you touched on a pet theory of man, 11:05 that it's always an illusion to confuse passing a law 11:09 with changing society. 11:11 Yes. 11:12 And I go back to the social contract. 11:15 You really can't enforce much 11:17 beyond what people in the aggregate buy into. 11:21 Yes. 11:22 And if we could somehow snap our fingers 11:25 in the religious right, for want of a better term, 11:28 wish they can snap their fingers 11:30 and create legislation 11:31 and forbid certain immoral behaviors. 11:34 Yes. 11:35 They wouldn't stop. Yes. 11:37 And even if people openly stop doing it, 11:41 they would be dissatisfied and rebellious underneath. 11:44 That's right. 11:46 So we have to seek to change 11:48 again the term of the Vietnam War, 11:52 Hearts and Minds, that's what we're about. 11:54 Yes. And I'd like to add one other thing. 11:57 I've heard some academics in the discussion 11:59 saying that Christians, 12:01 and there are Christian academics saying, 12:02 I have the right to have an atmosphere 12:05 or a society that is in line with my Christian thinking. 12:10 And I'm very hesitant to agree with that 12:14 simply because that imposes 12:17 on the rights of other individuals 12:19 who live out their conscience. 12:21 Absolutely. And that's-- 12:22 And where does that right come from? 12:24 Exactly, exactly, and so, and I don't believe that, 12:27 that's God's way of doing it. 12:30 We're getting close to our break 12:32 but the way I express it what, 12:34 a lot of what passes for religious liberty 12:37 is really religious entitlement. 12:39 Absolutely. 12:41 And this is the right idea that I'm entitled of my view, 12:44 I'm entitled of a country and a society that enforces 12:47 or narrowly encourages just my view. 12:51 Yes. And bad luck to you. 12:52 Yes. 12:53 And that might be fine 12:56 if you could know ahead of time 12:57 and everybody could be certain ahead of time 13:00 that you had the right view. 13:02 But you're not dropping the conviction 13:05 that you and I have within ourselves. 13:07 When you talk about society as a whole 13:09 and many different belief systems, 13:10 many different political view, 13:12 you can't make that decision for everybody. 13:15 Everyone else thinks that 13:17 they're right and you're wrong. 13:18 Yes. 13:19 So we need to give this level plank field, 13:21 this open agenda for people to make up their own minds. 13:26 It's the only fair way 13:28 and that's how God acted in the beginning. 13:30 That's right. 13:32 You know, he says, you know, let's reason together. 13:34 He's not gonna compel. 13:36 We're very close to halfway through our program. 13:39 It always happens so quickly. 13:41 If you'll stay with us, 13:43 we'll be back shortly to continue this discussion 13:45 with Andy Im. 13:48 Deep searching discussion 13:50 on what is religious liberty not just for Adventists 13:53 but for all Christians. |
Revised 2017-01-30