Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break,
with my guest I was...
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what were we talking about?
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Well, we were talking
about violent Islamic radicalism
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and how it's
tilting religious liberty
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in the wrong way...
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I hadn't really forgotten,
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I want to have you reiterate it.
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Now, I mean,
there's a real point here,
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you know, we're not
trying to rag on Islam.
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I've spoken to Imams and Muslims
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and many of them are
very embarrassed by this...
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is they should be even.
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We can't tar every
Muslim with the sins of a few
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but further than that,
this is what I was trying say,
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we shouldn't tar all believers
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with the sins of these
particular types of Jihadis.
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This is a
phenomenon of their faith
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and very
dangerous for the government
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to get the idea that
all faiths are dangerous.
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Right.
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And that anybody of any faith,
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especially we're talking about
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religious
accommodation by definition
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when you want
religious accommodation,
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it's a deeply whole
conscience position, isn't it?
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That's right.
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I mean, that's
one of the discussions
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that were behind the amendments
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to Title VII of the
Civil Rights Act of 1964,
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they put in the
accommodation provision
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because the idea was that
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people would hold
beliefs very strongly
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and so they wanted the employer
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or the union to bend to
the individual employee,
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not the employee to bend
to the employer or union.
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Yeah, very good.
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At times going by,
in a way I should've,
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I hesitated too
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because I was wanting to
jump on to a follow up topic
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but it was such a big thing,
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I thought I would
reiterate it after the break
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but, you know,
your font of information
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on different Supreme Court cases
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and accommodation
cases and I know this one,
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Sisters of Mercy, isn't it?
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Yeah, Little
Sisters of the Poor.
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Little Sisters, well,
actually I'm slipping...
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we were talking about pop songs.
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Isn't it...
there's a Canadian singer,
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he's got a song,
"Sisters of Mercy,
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" Little Sisters of the Poor.
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Well, these are
Sisters of Mercy actually.
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So, I'd like to share a bit
about it or for you to share.
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What was that case exactly
and how does that work...?
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This case once again had to do
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with the new Obama care mandates
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that require employers to pay
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for what these
employers believe are abortions
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for their employees.
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So a convent of sisters of
all things is required to pay
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for medical
insurance for this...
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well, here's the thing.
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So this is sort of a
strange parallel to Hobby Lobby?
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Hobby Lobby, right,
but the twist is this.
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In this case,
the government said,
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we will work
out an accommodation
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but you have to file
this application or this form.
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And then a little sister
said, "No, by doing this,
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we think we are endorsing
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our insurance carrier to pay
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for abortions and that
violates our religious beliefs."
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Now, here's the
critical religious issue,
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the critical legal issue,
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the critical
constitutional issue.
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Who gets to decide the logic
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of a person's religious beliefs?
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I've heard people
say, "Well, that's extreme.
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They shouldn't
have objected to that."
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There were various, this is a...
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Little Sisters, this is one of
a series of cases called Zubik
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and it involves
generally Catholic institutions,
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although not all of them.
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They're all
objective to signing this form,
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and in each case
the courts were saying,
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"Well, we don't really think
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that burdens
your religious beliefs
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because we don't really think
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that religious
belief is reasonable."
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I actually heard all arguments,
the Seventh Circuit were...
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Judges of the
Seventh Circuit were saying,
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"Oh, maybe we
should take a survey
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of all Catholic schools
of higher education to see
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if they would
agree with Notre Dame,
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" Notre Dame was the..
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You probably already figured
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that I pluck
things out of thin air.
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But, you know, it just hit me,
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you remember the
Santeria cult issue,
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many, many years ago.
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Yes.
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Yes, I remember they,
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that weren't they
allowed accommodation,
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given accommodation?
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Well, that was a
first amendment case.
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But that's very unreasonable.
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Where they're
offering animal sacrifices.
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Yes, it was in
Miami as I remember.
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And it came from
Brazil originally.
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Yes, the church of Lukumi,
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Babalu is...
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Yes, I think that was a...
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Hialeah versus the Church
of Lukumi by Hialeah anyway...
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Yeah, you got it this on.
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I'm close, I
haven't knocked it on.
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But they were given
accommodation, weren't they?
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Well, they were because this
was a follow up on Senate...
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But for most of
the... of other religions,
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that's very unreasonable,
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very illogical, that's my point.
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Well, exactly, so
this is black letter law
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that judges are not theologians,
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the government should not
pass on the reasonableness
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or logic of your
religious beliefs
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but what was happening
repeatedly in my opinion
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was that these
US Court of appeals
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were in fact
passing on reasonableness
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and the logic of
the religious beliefs
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of these nuns and of
other Catholic institutions
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and other
religious institutions,
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so the case comes
to the US Supreme Court
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and the US Supreme Court,
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upon the death of Justice Scalia
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lost the 5-member
majority that would...
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I've heard you say this before.
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Yes, they would protect
these religious beliefs,
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so now they are
for... what do they do?
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The US Supreme Court did
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one of the most
remarkable things
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I've ever seen, they said,
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"We're gonna vacate
the lower court decisions,
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that is they're not
going to be valid anymore,
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" which was a great
deal, a great victory
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but because the court
apparently couldn't agree,
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they said, "We believe that
you guys can agree on this."
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They'd asked the
parties to submit briefs...
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They are the
parties in the suit.
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In the suit, right.
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After oral
argument, they would said,
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"Well, we're
listening to oral argument,
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we really think the
two of you can agree."
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So they basically said,
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"Go back down to the
lower court and agree."
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This is what happens
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when you have a 4-4
deadlock in the Supreme Court.
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I actually can give you a
example of that in Australia,
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at the time of some
bad church in fighting,
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two church groups
went before a judge,
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a journalist and his
opponents and the judge heard it
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and he divined correctly
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that it was an
inside church struggle
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or doctrinal
struggle and he said,
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he threw it at a
court and he says,
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"Go back and sort it
out between yourselves."
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So he did the same thing
but this is on a bigger scale
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and you wouldn't expect
the Supreme Court to do that.
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Right, I mean,
judges very often say to me,
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"Go settle this
case, I want to..."
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but this was after oral argument
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before the United
States Supreme Court...
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Can they do that?
It's time for settlement.
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It's over generally by then.
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Well, they did it.
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Well, at the risk of alienating
some of our listeners.
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It seems to me the Supreme Court
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holding forth on the election
of 2000 was that I want to.
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Well... Tell me, you
studied the constitution.
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It's all over and this
is just an abstraction,
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but I read the constitution
and if there's a problem,
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it would go to,
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I forget which
order but the legislature.
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First of all the electors
could elect anyone else,
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that doesn't have
to be a clean deal.
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Once they get in the room,
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they can put anyone
as its president, right.
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Electoral college got
into the constitution,
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it could go to the
house of representatives
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or the Supreme
Court can choose...
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choose not debate on, anyhow...
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I don't teach that so I'm not,
I'm not sure if you're right
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about the
Supreme Court on this...
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One of your friend
Scalia in that decision,
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he said that they
had to work that way...
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Oh, was he...
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wait a minute like you,
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we've get apples
and oranges here.
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I thought you are
telling me in the case
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of a election problem,
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it could go into the
House of Representatives,
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which I
understand it to be the case.
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In this case though,
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the issue was whether or not
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there was some sort of
constitutional statutory right
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to have these recounts
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and the Supreme
Court weighed in on that.
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Now I don't think...
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it's true that the Supreme Court
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stopped the recount...
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It wasn't
narrowly speaking about
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the presidential election?
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No...
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And it was a red
herring that I threw up.
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Let's go back to
the real troll here...
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Well, we were on the sisters...
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The Little
Sisters of the Poor...
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Little Sisters,
I'm still on mercy.
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It seems to me that
I've heard this before
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'cause I've gone to some
very informational meetings
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at Catholic
University and Roman Catholic
00:10:04.63\00:10:07.14
get-togethers
and this seems to be
00:10:07.17\00:10:09.94
one of their core syllabus
00:10:09.97\00:10:12.51
and they have drawn a
line in the sand in dealing
00:10:12.54\00:10:16.95
particularly with the
healthcare provisions,
00:10:16.98\00:10:20.92
and I might not
agree with all of it,
00:10:20.95\00:10:23.62
but I think it's a
very strong principle stance
00:10:23.65\00:10:26.65
and there's a lot at
stake, there's no question.
00:10:26.69\00:10:28.76
There's a lot at stake...
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Since when does the government
get to tell the Catholic Church
00:10:30.43\00:10:34.96
or its institutions
that you have to pay
00:10:35.00\00:10:37.83
for the abortions
of your employees?
00:10:37.87\00:10:40.67
It seems to me this is
an outrageous proposition.
00:10:40.70\00:10:44.11
I shouldn't have to
pay for the abortions
00:10:44.14\00:10:45.97
of other people, I mean,
00:10:46.01\00:10:47.48
I pay my taxes but
to just say to me...
00:10:47.51\00:10:50.45
"Well, Bruce Cameron,
00:10:50.48\00:10:52.95
here's someone
who needs an abortion,
00:10:52.98\00:10:55.82
so you pay for it."
00:10:55.85\00:10:57.42
It seems to me that that
is an outrageous proposition
00:10:57.45\00:11:01.29
and it's as outrageous
if you are an employer,
00:11:01.32\00:11:04.19
I was just saying
some stranger here
00:11:04.23\00:11:06.03
but these employees
will have the employer link.
00:11:06.06\00:11:09.23
What I get out of
this and another cases
00:11:09.26\00:11:11.50
that we shared in other programs
00:11:11.53\00:11:13.67
is that while the state
of religious freedom appears
00:11:13.70\00:11:17.57
okay to most people who
are not on the frontlines,
00:11:17.61\00:11:20.18
if you really analyze it,
it's never been more iffy,
00:11:20.21\00:11:24.65
the principles at
play are quite dangerous.
00:11:24.68\00:11:27.02
Yes.
00:11:27.05\00:11:28.38
There's a grand movement
00:11:28.42\00:11:30.85
toward the whole aspect of faith
00:11:30.89\00:11:33.19
and whatever prerogatives
you might have in society.
00:11:33.22\00:11:35.22
Would you agree with that?
00:11:35.26\00:11:36.59
I agree, I agree and in
fact, as we've discussed,
00:11:36.62\00:11:41.70
there have been some
recent Supreme Court decisions
00:11:41.73\00:11:45.00
which are very
positive for religious liberty
00:11:45.03\00:11:48.64
but those turned on
a very narrow majority,
00:11:48.67\00:11:51.31
a 5-4 majority,
00:11:51.34\00:11:53.14
there is a tremendous
movement in this country
00:11:53.17\00:11:56.01
that I believe is
hostile to religion.
00:11:56.04\00:11:58.58
Individuals who
are not convinced
00:11:58.61\00:12:01.28
that religion is
good for the country,
00:12:01.32\00:12:03.85
individuals who do not
believe that preserving faith
00:12:03.89\00:12:08.16
and faith freedom is
helpful to the country.
00:12:08.19\00:12:13.50
Many times in the Old Testament,
00:12:13.53\00:12:15.20
God's people had to sally
forth against the God's enemies
00:12:15.23\00:12:20.64
and if you're
inclined to read it that way,
00:12:20.67\00:12:22.80
there's some
violent confrontations
00:12:22.84\00:12:26.01
but one of the most impressive
to me was when they vented out,
00:12:26.04\00:12:29.61
led by the choir
singing religious songs
00:12:29.64\00:12:31.91
and as it is said,
00:12:31.95\00:12:33.28
"They went out in
the beauty of holiness."
00:12:33.31\00:12:35.88
Oh, Christians today know
00:12:35.92\00:12:37.69
that God fights
up our battles for us
00:12:37.72\00:12:40.26
and the most serious
battles are spiritual ones.
00:12:40.29\00:12:44.13
Unfortunately, we're
witnessing in our world today,
00:12:44.16\00:12:48.46
a medieval
application of religious force
00:12:48.50\00:12:51.93
and fanaticism.
00:12:51.97\00:12:54.17
It appears mostly
in Islam at the moment.
00:12:54.20\00:12:59.11
All of us need to recognize
00:12:59.14\00:13:01.18
that this is a
modern aberration,
00:13:01.21\00:13:03.61
and indeed this
is not reflective
00:13:03.65\00:13:05.88
of true faith and godliness.
00:13:05.91\00:13:10.32
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:10.35\00:13:13.59