Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bruce N. Cameron
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000334A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is the program that brings you discussion, 00:31 analysis, up-to-date news and even a little argumentation 00:36 on religious liberty developments 00:38 and principles around the world, 00:40 and of course, very often in the United States. 00:44 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:47 and my guest is Bruce Cameron, 00:49 professor of law at Regent University 00:52 in Virginia Beach, Virginia. 00:55 Not gonna make that same slip 00:57 but I try to claim it from Maryland where I live. 01:00 When you say argumentation, are you talking about me? 01:04 No, but this is got to... 01:06 Now, you know, there's a very contentious element, 01:09 more and more contentious element 01:11 of religious life in the world 01:12 but the US is now experiencing a big time, 01:16 this is violent religious extremism 01:20 /Islamic fundamentalism /Islamic Jihadism. 01:26 We'd become sort of used to saying it first in Afghanistan, 01:29 then worked out through ISIS in the Middle East 01:32 but now it's coming home here. 01:34 It's right. 01:35 And we've had the most recent incident on this 01:39 was in Orlando, Florida at a gay bar. 01:45 How many people were killed? 01:46 Was it 50 or 80 or some, 01:49 many tens of people were gunned down systematically 01:52 by this man who, this Islamic man 01:56 who clearly had some personal hang ups 01:58 but he'd sworn allegiance to ISIS, 02:01 to the principles of Islamic Jihad, 02:04 was railing against the immorality 02:06 and that seemed to justify him 02:09 to this murderous and then suicidal act. 02:14 You know, for this one thing, you know, we can say, 02:16 you know, what a shame and we'd move on 02:18 but this is just the latest in the series, 02:23 most of them involve Islam but do you see any... 02:28 All of them involve Islam, don't they? 02:32 There's been one or two 02:33 and, you know, I could go back further, 02:34 that was Timothy McGuire for example. 02:36 But did he do that on behalf of his Christian principles, 02:38 I don't think so. 02:41 Well, not directly but Oklahoma city 02:45 was a reaction to the federal action 02:50 against religious group at Waco, Texas, remember. 02:54 Well, that's... 02:55 That has a connection with religious persecution 03:00 in the minds of some of these, remember, 03:02 the Christian militia movement were 03:04 and probably still are very offended by that... 03:07 but you're right. 03:08 I'm offended by the fact that they kill people... 03:10 Yes, absolutely. 03:11 That's a huge story and I've discussed that. 03:13 Right. But you're right. 03:14 But no one said, "In the name of Jesus Christ, 03:17 I'm killing 50 people," that just does not happen. 03:20 About the best or the worst 'cause it's very bad. 03:23 We can say it's the Westboro Baptist 03:29 screaming abuse at the families 03:32 of military casualties in the war, 03:34 at the funerals and saying, 03:36 they're all homosexuals and so on 03:38 and, you know, God's gonna punish them or so on, 03:40 that's very rude crude personally abusive 03:44 but yes at the moment... 03:46 No one's falling over that because of it... 03:47 No, the phenomenon we're saying 03:49 is murderous application of Islam. 03:55 Of course, not for one moment would anyone say, 03:58 think or feel that, oh, Muslims should do such things. 04:01 It's never true. 04:02 But there's a direct link 04:04 between the Quran and Islamic faith 04:07 and a whole spate of violent acts. 04:09 Now that's regrettable, you know, 04:11 there's governments doing things to address it, 04:14 but do you think 04:16 and I can tell you ahead of time, 04:17 I think that there is some danger of spillover 04:21 that the authority is dealing 04:22 with the very real violent threat 04:24 of religion out of control, 04:25 in the sense violently out of control 04:28 will sort of write the prescription large. 04:32 I hear terms like fundamentalism 04:36 and certainly extremism applied very freely 04:41 to all people of faith that believe, 04:43 that have a faith that means something to them 04:46 rather than just, you know, 04:48 a nominal connection to a belief. 04:50 Is there a danger on this? 04:52 Well, you won't hear argument from me. 04:53 You started out talking about argumentation. 04:56 I agree with you completely because here is the real issue. 04:59 Obviously, the gravest issue is people dying because of this 05:04 but the real issue for religious liberty is this. 05:07 In the early years of my litigation, 05:09 I've now been a litigator of first amendment 05:13 right to freedom of religion rights for 40 years. 05:16 In their early years, 05:18 the other side that is my opponents would say, 05:21 "Well, I don't like this person's religious beliefs. 05:24 I disagree with their religious beliefs 05:27 but hey, they're just a little nutty. 05:29 That's not quite right 05:31 and they're out of the mainstream 05:33 and this is the United States and we accommodate nuts 05:37 and that's okay. 05:39 So, I mean, that would be their bottom-line, 05:42 that's okay, they're to accommodate my clients. 05:46 Today because of Islamic radicalism 05:51 and this kind of violence, it's no longer innocent nuts, 05:56 people who are religious according to the secular mind, 06:00 the pagan mind are capable of killing us, 06:05 that is a substantially different proposition 06:08 and that I think helps to form the battle lines on this 06:12 which is most unfortunate 06:14 and it's a not just by accident. 06:18 I read democratic papers 06:22 for what position the Democratic Party would take 06:25 and it explicitly said 06:27 that we need to link conservative Christians 06:31 to this fundamentalism of Islam. 06:35 Yes, yes, there were democratic consultants 06:40 whose name you would recognize were on had written this paper 06:44 and so there's an... 06:45 And to what end? To what end? 06:48 To bolster their base, I mean, 06:52 the Democratic Party according to surveys 06:55 is supported more by people 06:57 who do not involve themselves in religion 07:02 or are hostile to religion, through Republican base, 07:05 it generally involve to a greater... 07:08 Yeah, there's many exceptions 07:09 but it's a broad statement, that's I'm sure of that... 07:11 People who attend church regularly 07:14 are generally Republicans not Democrats. 07:17 Atheists are generally Democrats and not Republicans 07:19 and so this is an argument to their base. 07:23 But it's a very dangerous argument 07:25 because it's, mark it, 07:28 I can say you were trying to make a point 07:30 with your any argument that really other than... 07:35 well, I can go back decades 07:37 and remember some Christian anti abortionists, 07:41 there were a few bombings 07:43 and a couple of shootings of abortion doctors 07:47 and that was most regrettable, 07:48 but it was a very narrow extremist group that would not, 07:52 I'm using the term myself, but they were not endorsed 07:56 or linked in any coherent theological way 07:59 with Christianity as it's, expresses this off, 08:03 they just happen to be Christians 08:05 on a abhorrent off shoot. 08:08 Right, you wouldn't walk into the average Baptist church... 08:11 On average, I don't think any Baptist church would... 08:14 On shooting abortionists. 08:15 No. Right. 08:17 And so was an extreme violent action by people 08:22 who took the name of Christianity 08:24 but, you know, they wouldn't get any leverage 08:28 from their faith for but Islam, the Jihad is form of a... 08:34 I've read the Quran... 08:37 the only thing you can argue about is what it would take 08:40 to kick in the Jihadi imperative, 08:46 you know, when the Ummah of the people are threatened, 08:50 Jihad is called for, when the pagans attack you 08:54 or resist you, it's called for. 08:56 It's a standard doctrine 08:58 and so it's been invoked by some, 09:02 perhaps, fanatical, certainly politically extremist groups 09:06 and justify it with... 09:08 even within some of the Muslim community, 09:11 all very regrettable. 09:13 There are civil ways to address it, 09:16 you know, law enforcement ways. 09:19 But this has got everybody scared in this country 09:23 and now to flip that back against Christians 09:29 and another faiths, I think is almost, 09:32 well, it's not almost, it's extremely sinister, 09:36 very dangerous and, you know, 09:39 will lead to violence of some sort. 09:41 It's tilting the deck against religious freedom... 09:43 Yeah. 09:45 In fact, that's one aspect of the tilt, 09:47 another aspect to the tilt is this. 09:49 When I was young, people who were pagans, 09:53 I just use that term, 09:56 didn't claim moral superiority for their views, 10:00 they said, "Okay, we do bad things, 10:04 we're neat, we're special. 10:06 This is just our little thing and we're non conformists." 10:09 Okay, that's how they approached. 10:11 These days, pagans take the view 10:15 that they have a higher moral way than Christians. 10:19 Now this is another huge dislocation in the argument, 10:24 not only are fundamentalists viewed as potential killers 10:29 but now, serious Christians, 10:32 those who care about their faith 10:34 are stocked to have an inferior moral code, 10:39 neither of those help religious liberty. 10:42 Let me throw in some that are involved. 10:43 I've mentioned on this program before but it... 10:46 it was quite bizarre, Pope Benedict, 10:51 may he retire in peace... 10:54 Immediately or just talking about... 10:55 Well, he's retired and may he have peace and he's... 10:59 I'm sorry, yes, yes and I am sorry. 11:01 Pope Benedict, at the beginning of his pontificate 11:04 gave a speech at Regensburg University 11:06 that got him into great trouble with the Muslims 11:08 because he gave an example from history, 11:11 of a dialogue between a Byzantine Emperor 11:14 under siege by an Islamic force 11:17 and the Uranian General commanding them 11:23 and it was about violence in religion. 11:25 So he planted the seed of religious violence 11:27 and everyone understood, 11:29 we're living under that parallel form today. 11:33 Then he said Christianity once was violent 11:38 and I think it's wrong 11:39 because Christianity in the early Christians days 11:41 was nonviolent. 11:43 They went passively to the lions, 11:45 but if you accept his premise, it was very dangerous. 11:47 He says, "Christianity was violent," 11:49 he says what took away its violent tendencies 11:52 was that it embraced Hellenistic rationality. 11:58 And then the rest of his speech was three major risks 12:04 to that Hellenistic rationality. 12:08 The second two were variance on secularism. 12:11 The first, very first, he said this, 12:14 "The reformers by their insistence 12:17 on Sola scriptura 12:19 exposed Christianity again to violence," 12:22 and we know that the Jihadis, 12:24 you know, are fixated on the Quran, you know, 12:28 different imams might claim 12:30 they interpret it differently or wrongly, 12:31 that's maybe but still, this is a book, 12:35 do or die and die mostly and to say 12:38 that the Protestant reformists or present day Protestants, 12:43 who like the reformers will take the Bible 12:46 as the only word and live or die by it, 12:49 they're to be equated with the violent Jihadis. 12:52 I think that was the most pernicious 12:55 inflammatory statement possible. 12:58 I think that he intended to scare Protestants 13:02 away from insistence on the Bible only 13:05 to the traditions 13:07 and the rationality of the mother church. 13:10 But I think the logic of what he was doing 13:12 has taken root everywhere. 13:14 Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that, 13:16 that pagan theory has saved Christians from filings. 13:20 I know it. 13:21 All right. I can't agree with him. 13:24 He had a right to say it but the logical progression 13:28 that was most dangerous and I think on a... 13:31 not just on, you know, 13:33 some constructs in the newspaper and that. 13:35 This was at the highest level of religion 13:38 that was being furthered. 13:39 This dangerous idea that... 13:44 close adherence to, in this case, 13:46 the Bible other than the Quran 13:48 is to be equated with this radical violent Jihadis. 13:52 Very dangerous. 13:53 Well, not only that, 13:54 it's completely inconsistent with Christian theology. 13:56 Well, of course. 13:58 What is the essence of the gospel? 13:59 The essence of the gospel 14:01 is that Jesus gave up His life for us... 14:03 Non violent. 14:05 That's right, He gave up His life 14:06 to give us eternal life. 14:08 That's... 14:09 And what did Jesus say though, you know, 14:11 "If my kingdom is of this earth," 14:12 he says, "my followers would fight for me but it's not. 14:16 My kingdom is not of this earth." 14:17 Well, that is right, of course. 14:20 He was talking about the Roman kingdom there 14:23 but nevertheless, the philosophy... 14:25 Well, He is distancing Himself from... 14:27 which was a very violent kingdom. 14:28 Yeah. Let's take a quick break. 14:30 Stay with us, we'll be back to continue this discussion 14:33 and perhaps, who knows where we'll go, 14:36 you will find out when you come back. |
Revised 2016-09-29