Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
that brings you discussion
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on very relevant up-to-date
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and important
issues on religious liberty
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in the United States
and around the world.
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And it's a big world
and there are many issues.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest is Bruce Cameron.
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Professor Bruce
Cameron from the...
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Regent.
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Regent, I was...
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Well, I was trying to
think of your department,
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school of law, isn't
it Regent University.
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Yes, right.
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I teach in the
law school at Regent.
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At Virginia
Beach, Virginia. Right.
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An overtly Christian
law school by the way.
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Yes, and I think it has
a very good reputation as,
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I mean it's well-known
as a Christian school.
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It's not only
well-known but the students
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who come to our law school
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have a special
opportunity in the sense that
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there are lots of judges who are
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devout Christians.
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People who care
about their faith
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and they want clerks
who share their views.
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So at least 10
percent of our class,
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graduating class
are hired as clerks
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among those that
are honors students
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almost 30 percent
that go as clerks.
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It's quite impressive.
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And that's the beginning
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to some very still a
little career, isn't it...
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That's right.
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Even some of the
Supreme Court justices
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themselves were clerks.
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That's exactly
right. That's exactly right.
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And which all goes
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to underscore the value of
Christian education, right?
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Well, see we integrate
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law and faith.
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We talk about
how the law the Bible
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actually has the precedence
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for civil law today
and criminal law today.
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And so students come
out as educated lawyers
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but they also understand
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how their faith
integrates with the law.
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Wonderful.
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Let's talk about something
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that could negatively
impact Christian education.
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Yes.
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There's a...
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be the proposal dancing its way
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through the
California Senate I think,
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I don't think, yeah,
the California Senate
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that does the name of
the bill but it concerns...
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well, I was gonna say state aid.
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That's my perspective on it.
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It concerns these
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homosexual affection statutes.
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My interpretation is state
aid has given a vulnerability,
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but it's not about state aid
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with the vulnerability
to the school situation.
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That's right.
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California and lot of states now
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have pass statutes that say
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you cannot discriminate
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on the basis of
sexual orientation.
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Okay.
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But it's if
they're taking funds.
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Well...
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I read one of the
outlines of the bill proposal
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and it specifically
says the type of funding,
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and I didn't mean anything mean,
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not being in California.
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Yeah, that's not a
universal rule here.
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For example the states
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that passed these statutes
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very often has
nothing to do with state aid,
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they simply require
owners of businesses...
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A compliance for this. Right.
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There will be no discrimination
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and the question is
people who are running schools,
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people who are running
religious institutions,
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are they exempt?
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The federal statute,
the Civil Rights Act of 1964
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which by the way does not
protect sexual orientation
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despite repeated that
for it's to mandate to,
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to add that.
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It has specific
exemptions for religious schools
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and religious
institutions that is
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they can
discriminate on the basis
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of their religious beliefs.
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So the battle in California
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and the battle
in other places is
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whether or not there
will be a religious exemption
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from these statutes that require
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you not to discriminate
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on the base of
sexual orientation.
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Oh, I think they are actually
the target of that, don't they?
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Well, they may very well be.
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So for example
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we have three
universities in California...
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Seventh-day Adventist churches.
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Seventh-day Adventist churches,
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three
universities in California.
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Would a Seventh-day
Adventist university
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hire a practicing homosexual
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to be a part of the faculty?
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Normally no.
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I would hope not.
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I mean normally
not considering the...
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Not because of a personal
animist against this person
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but they lost dial
their moral viewpoint
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is that of sink with
what the church holds
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is biblical viewpoint.
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Right.
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You're trying to
teach to the students.
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If a faculty member said,
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I've three spouses,
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I assume they wouldn't be hired.
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Yes, it's not the
only area of inconsistency.
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I mean if incompatibility
with nonbelievers.
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If a faculty member
said, "I believe in adultery
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and I believe in the
promotion of adultery."
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They wouldn't be
hired or retained
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and so this is just part
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of the moral
teaching of the church.
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Now if the statute says,
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"You can't discriminate
based on sexual orientation."
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Then can the school say,
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"We're not going to hire you,
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if you're
practicing homosexual."
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That's where the
rubber meets the road.
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And that's where
apart from you says
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not the only application
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but it seems to me if
they're taking direct state aid,
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their argument
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of an exception doesn't fly.
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It's sort of a board agent.
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Yeah, well, you and
I've discussed this before.
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I don't think state aid
has anything to do with it.
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Does it make
another available argument
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for the state to
say, we can regulate you.
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They argue based on the
fact that you are tax exempt
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that they can control you.
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They argue with
regard to and certainly our,
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your viewers have
read about the cake-maker.
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That's been forced to
make cakes for homosexual.
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So at least that's the
goal of the litigation.
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That person doesn't
accept any aid whatsoever.
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And so the state aid is
simply an additional argument
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they would
regulate our schools anyway.
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I'll explain something
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and we were
going to talk about it,
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anyhow there's a very
good Supreme Court decision
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called Hosanna-Tabor
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that I thought
created a grand caveat
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for not just the
ministers employed by the church
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but all church operations.
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Why would that not
cover church run schools,
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overtly religious nature?
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Yeah, it should,
it should cover them.
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See we're talking
about two different things.
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What is the
California legislature doing
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that's hostile to the
free exercise of religion?
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What are these various
states doing this hostile?
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There are those
statutes and then you say, well,
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if we sue and
challenge the statute,
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could we win?
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And it seems to
me that we could win
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based on the Hosanna-Tabor case.
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Hosanna-Tabor for your listeners
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is a case involving a
teacher in a Lutheran school.
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And she became afflicted with...
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Narcolepsy.
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Narcolepsy, right. Right.
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You don't want your teachers
falling asleep in the class.
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You might notice,
you know, so they said,
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"Hey, you can't teach for us
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while you're doing this,
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and so, while
you're recovering."
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And so they hired someone else
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and she got to know
from a doctor saying,
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"I've recovered."
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And the school
said, "We don't think so."
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So because the
federal civil right statute
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protects
employees with disabilities.
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She filed a lawsuit
based on her disability.
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The Federal Government,
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the Equal Employment Opportunity
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Commission filed lawsuit
against this Lutheran school
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and said, "You cannot refuse
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to put her back in the classroom
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because it would
violate the Americans
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with disabilities act."
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What did they say?
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The Lutheran
said, "Wait a minute,
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she's teaching
religion, she is a minister."
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Since when does the
state get to tell the church
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who will be its ministers?
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Thankfully the United
States Supreme Court said,
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"You're right, the state has
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throughout
history tried to talk,
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tell the church who
should be its leader.
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And the churches
tried to tell the state
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which should be its leader.
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Neither is
permissible and so she,
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the Lutheran
teacher with narcolepsy
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has no claim against
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the Lutheran church school."
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That would be the
argument to say that...
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It was a unanimous decision too.
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Wasn't it?
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Yeah, everyone agreed...
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So it's not a
close call. Yeah, right.
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There were
concurring opinions that said,
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"We think that it's right."
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So not all nine
justices signed off
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on the same opinion.
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But the good news s
the concurring opinions
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basically said,
"We think there is
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a very broad
definition of minister."
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Yeah.
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And it's not gonna be
a cookie cutter thing.
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So those were helpful opinions.
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So getting back...
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Again why,
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why does it seem that
California can triumph...
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that's not upon that I meant.
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But you know why
would this supersede...
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very clear Supreme Court action
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as far as the
schools are concerned?
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You would hope the
legislators in California
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will be paying attention
to the U.S constitution.
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But I don't think
there is any reason
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to believe that happens.
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And so they might
very well pass this.
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And then...
00:10:29.92\00:10:31.93
Well, it would be
declared unconstitutional,
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unless that was a case
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that worked its way
out through the courts.
00:10:34.90\00:10:36.56
That's right where the church
would have to file a lawsuit,
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go to the Supreme...
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very expensive, very difficult,
00:10:41.40\00:10:42.90
we don't know what happens
in the mean time to the school.
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So the bottom line is that yes,
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I think the school would win.
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Now I said there
were two questions.
00:10:52.98\00:10:55.18
The second question is,
00:10:55.22\00:10:57.79
is this teacher a minister?
00:10:57.82\00:11:00.19
Now that's an important issue.
00:11:00.22\00:11:02.66
Most of the Seventh-day
Adventist union conferences
00:11:02.69\00:11:07.00
have a commission
teacher classification.
00:11:07.03\00:11:12.30
I think that makes
the teacher a minister.
00:11:12.33\00:11:17.44
And so the question is
00:11:17.47\00:11:19.51
how all the
conferences handle this.
00:11:19.54\00:11:21.84
They might be in a situation
00:11:21.88\00:11:23.75
where because they
hadn't set things up properly
00:11:23.78\00:11:26.58
that the person wouldn't
be considered a minister...
00:11:26.61\00:11:29.38
Well, you know, there is history
00:11:29.42\00:11:31.05
that I hope is
being reversed somewhat
00:11:31.09\00:11:33.76
but a number of
religious colleges,
00:11:33.79\00:11:37.59
I'm not saying of
which denomination
00:11:37.63\00:11:39.79
in recent years
anxious to get more state aid
00:11:39.83\00:11:43.26
have overemphasized
their secular nature
00:11:43.30\00:11:47.17
and minimize the
ministry overall.
00:11:47.20\00:11:49.60
And I could see that
00:11:49.64\00:11:51.17
catching up with
them on this present need.
00:11:51.21\00:11:55.44
See in my area of
work compulsory unionism,
00:11:55.48\00:12:00.65
this is big issue.
00:12:00.68\00:12:02.02
One of the
things that I litigate
00:12:02.05\00:12:03.39
that you and
I've not discussed is
00:12:03.42\00:12:05.82
I help church
schools avoid being organized
00:12:05.85\00:12:11.19
by the National
Labor Relations Board.
00:12:11.23\00:12:13.50
The United States
Supreme Court has told
00:12:13.53\00:12:15.36
the National
Labor Relations Board
00:12:15.40\00:12:17.17
that it cannot organize teachers
00:12:17.20\00:12:19.53
in religious schools.
00:12:19.57\00:12:21.44
National Labor
Relations Board says...
00:12:21.47\00:12:24.07
Hasn't accepted it?
00:12:24.11\00:12:25.44
Yeah, forget you, we're
going to do what we want.
00:12:25.47\00:12:28.98
That's not exactly the
way they put it of course.
00:12:29.01\00:12:31.65
And so they've been
on this rampage lately
00:12:31.68\00:12:35.32
to sanction
elections among the faculty
00:12:35.35\00:12:40.09
in overtly religious schools
00:12:40.12\00:12:42.62
and the issue about the school
00:12:42.66\00:12:45.16
is just how religious is it.
00:12:45.19\00:12:48.30
Now you want the
government deciding
00:12:48.33\00:12:50.73
whether or not you're
sufficiently religious.
00:12:50.77\00:12:53.17
That's why when you
say, you know, if...
00:12:53.20\00:12:55.74
Well, that's true.
00:12:55.77\00:12:57.11
That said, I came
at from the other side,
00:12:57.14\00:13:00.14
the school trying to minimize it
00:13:00.18\00:13:02.38
to satisfy the government.
00:13:02.41\00:13:04.11
But it's even
worst for the government
00:13:04.15\00:13:05.71
to be making that determination.
00:13:05.75\00:13:07.32
That's right.
00:13:07.35\00:13:08.68
I mean since when
are these theologians
00:13:08.72\00:13:11.22
and government able to determine
00:13:11.25\00:13:14.02
the nature of
your religious beliefs
00:13:14.06\00:13:15.59
and whether you're
sufficiently devout.
00:13:15.62\00:13:19.09
Well, even if
they were theologians
00:13:19.13\00:13:20.96
in the particular Bible college,
00:13:21.00\00:13:22.46
I wouldn't want one
aspect of the religious culture
00:13:22.50\00:13:25.53
deciding for other of the group.
00:13:25.57\00:13:28.00
It's the priest to
all believers, right?
00:13:28.04\00:13:29.74
That's the priest
to all believers...
00:13:29.77\00:13:31.11
According to the
Bible and Martin Luther.
00:13:31.14\00:13:34.51
We're talking about
Martin Luther a lot.
00:13:34.54\00:13:36.24
I should tell the viewers
00:13:36.28\00:13:37.61
because next year is
the 500th anniversary
00:13:37.65\00:13:40.92
of the Martin Luther's
00:13:40.95\00:13:44.39
symbolic kick off of
the whole reformation.
00:13:44.42\00:13:46.86
Excellent.
00:13:46.89\00:13:48.22
So we're
defending that principle.
00:13:48.26\00:13:50.93
It's not just Protestant
00:13:50.96\00:13:52.76
but the Protestant Reformation
00:13:52.79\00:13:54.46
as you well know was
the flaring of this idea
00:13:54.50\00:13:57.50
of individual
religious liberties.
00:13:57.53\00:14:00.30
So let's pick up where we
were with the California statute
00:14:00.34\00:14:03.61
because the problem,
00:14:03.64\00:14:05.11
the religious liberty problem
00:14:05.14\00:14:06.88
is this bill has no
exception for religious schools.
00:14:06.91\00:14:12.05
That's the fight.
00:14:12.08\00:14:13.75
Well, that's what
makes me think that
00:14:13.78\00:14:15.12
they might be actually targeting
00:14:15.15\00:14:17.25
and we can't be
conspiracist always
00:14:17.29\00:14:23.63
I might be sometimes, but...
00:14:23.66\00:14:25.46
I was listening to you a lot.
00:14:25.49\00:14:26.90
Yeah, no, but it's
quite possible given the,
00:14:26.93\00:14:32.83
you know, the recent
activism on the gay agenda
00:14:32.87\00:14:36.10
that this is a bit of a set-up.
00:14:36.14\00:14:38.27
You're exactly right, Lincoln.
00:14:38.31\00:14:40.91
The dispute is whether or not
00:14:40.94\00:14:42.51
there will be an exception
for religious institutions.
00:14:42.54\00:14:46.18
And the fact
that there's a dispute
00:14:46.21\00:14:47.85
shows that the
homosexual movement
00:14:47.88\00:14:50.22
is targeting
religious institutions.
00:14:50.25\00:14:53.05
They want to
make the church kneel,
00:14:53.09\00:14:54.59
there is no question
in my mind about that.
00:14:54.62\00:14:55.96
And that's very unfortunate.
00:14:55.99\00:14:57.99
I think it was implicit
00:14:58.03\00:15:01.23
in this new found
right act for the gay agenda
00:15:01.26\00:15:04.13
but it didn't need to
be as direct as it is.
00:15:04.17\00:15:09.00
And I think the gay lobby
have an agenda of conflict
00:15:09.04\00:15:12.74
but as do many
or some Christians
00:15:12.77\00:15:16.34
and I think the end result
00:15:16.38\00:15:17.71
is this going to be
a sort of a culture war
00:15:17.75\00:15:19.98
or a morality war.
00:15:20.02\00:15:21.45
Let's take a
quick break before you,
00:15:21.48\00:15:23.65
I bounce you again on that.
00:15:23.69\00:15:25.22
We'll be right back.
00:15:25.25\00:15:26.72
Stay with us, we're
on to heavy stuff now,
00:15:26.76\00:15:30.16
and we'll continue it
in just a few moments.
00:15:30.19\00:15:32.49