Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Greg Hamilton
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000327B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break 00:09 we were getting into some heavy weeds 00:11 on the religious involvement in so many... 00:15 Are you getting lost in the weeds, Lincoln? 00:16 Yeah. 00:18 Well, not lost but they were heavy weeds. 00:20 Let me tell you how heavy it gets 00:22 and I couldn't believe this when it happened. 00:26 Donald Trump 00:28 who has emerged at the front of a pretty mixed pack 00:31 of Republican candidates has made some... 00:35 Pretty wild group. 00:36 And he's made some extreme statements 00:38 and one of them, 00:40 the pope said that this was unchristian. 00:46 Well, about not allowing Muslim... 00:49 It was about the wars... 00:51 It was about the wars I remember building the war. 00:53 That too, 00:55 I think he was meaning in fact for both. 00:56 But I can hardly remember, in fact I can't remember before 01:01 that where a pope certainly and hardly 01:03 any other religious leader 01:05 compended so openly and dismissively 01:10 of a major political leader, 01:11 that's almost without president now in that time. 01:15 Even more than that just last week 01:17 Pope Francis called for an end to cultural wars, 01:21 and so that must be worldwide 01:24 but certainly 01:25 we have our fair share of cultural wars 01:27 here in the United States. 01:28 But I couldn't help think when I heard that... 01:30 He called for an end to meanness, 01:32 and called for a spirit of inclusivity. 01:35 That's very good, an end to meanness. 01:36 It's sort of like a war on terror, 01:38 you know, you're against an idea 01:43 but when the Pope of Rome made that comment 01:46 about not being a Christian to Trump. 01:49 We're in a different dynamic but I think underneath 01:52 it is sort of a funny echo of the Emperor, 01:57 who was it? 01:58 One of the holy Roman emperors 02:01 was brought to task by the then pope. 02:05 When the pope condemned him, of course, 02:07 he would remove the loyalty of all of his subjects 02:10 and so the Emperor was reduced to coming 02:12 and begging in the snow for three days 02:15 I remember out in front of the pope. 02:16 Henry Navarre, Henry the IV I believe 02:19 who became the emperor of France. 02:21 That's long given in his example 02:24 of the extreme power of the church 02:26 over political figures. 02:30 And of course back then if a religious leader, 02:33 the pope particularly in Europe, 02:36 if he said that and condemned the leader 02:38 and said he was not a Christian 02:40 'cause which is another way or a lighter way of saying, 02:44 you know, you're excommunicated. 02:47 Then he is inciting rebellion. 02:50 I think this pope has done a lot of good things. 02:52 Many good things. 02:55 And thank you for correcting me, 02:56 I don't... 02:57 By no means can we put portray him as wrong 02:59 on every one of this issues. 03:01 He speaks very clearly on moral issues. 03:03 But I'm also concerned about 03:05 the more popular the pope becomes, 03:08 the more power has either in his hands 03:11 for a good change 03:12 or for a change that appears good, 03:15 and we all blindly go down a road 03:18 that may not be good at all. 03:19 And that's what concerns me is that more and more of church 03:23 and state are joining together for good things 03:26 but in the end where does it lead us... 03:28 Well, it's a bad dynamic, 03:29 it never comes to good end 03:31 when church and state are working 03:32 in tandem like that. 03:34 At the very least it excludes 03:36 those who are not of that faith. 03:38 Yes. 03:39 I mean, that's instant. 03:41 Well, there was a... 03:44 In Economist Magazine there was a... 03:46 Actually it was by John Allen, 03:48 actually in Crux Magazine 03:49 which is used to be a subsidiary 03:51 at Boston Globe. 03:53 It's now independent 03:54 but it's an online newspaper so to speak. 03:57 And there was an article in there on the title 04:00 "Why the pope is in a hurry?" 04:03 and then it /...Armageddon. 04:07 He believes that in the end based upon a novel 04:12 by Lord Henry I think is his name, 04:16 regarding the future 04:17 written back at the turn of the century 04:19 in the late 1800s, early 1900s 04:22 that the last great battle would be 04:25 between secular humanists and the atheists 04:28 versus Rome or the church. 04:32 And he believes that the church... 04:33 The pope believes that the church 04:35 will be united all as one, 04:37 all of Christianity coming together, 04:39 all third world religions Islam, 04:41 Hinduism, 04:43 Buddhism, Daoism, 04:45 they find all common cause to make war 04:48 against their common enemies, 04:50 secular humanism 04:51 which I find interesting 04:52 because if Armageddon is a battle 04:54 against secular humanist, 04:57 then that means all those religions 05:00 who don't quite agree with that worldwide unity 05:03 of all religions coming together 05:05 are going to be put in the same category 05:08 as secular humanists and treated badly as heretic 05:11 so to speak. 05:13 I guess, it's not impossible. 05:14 I had read a story couple of years ago 05:18 telling that 05:19 and we're all influenced by what we read. 05:21 And it's possible 05:22 if that's had a powerful effect on this pope. 05:25 You know, you and I can't prophetically, 05:27 automatically accept that view. 05:29 This seems a more likely one. 05:31 I also think that some of the actions 05:34 of the Catholic Church and the statements of this pope 05:37 because of things like the prophecies of Saint Malachy 05:39 that hinted, well, 05:43 as Malachy said the last pope reigns over the church 05:46 at the time of great distress when the seven hills pass away. 05:49 So it's a apocalyptic terminology. 05:51 And people forget that when the pope speaks, like, 05:54 last week he suggested that... 05:55 He's just an individual. 05:57 That women become deacons within the Catholic Church 05:59 which is a huge, huge idea and pronouncement. 06:02 Lot of commentators came out afterwards and said, 06:04 yeah, but that's just an idea. 06:06 He is full of ideas 06:07 and then the end of the article it said, 06:09 yeah, but you know what? 06:11 The rest of the world likes what he says 06:14 and so he is changing ideas and around the world 06:19 so he is influencing the world while at the same time... 06:21 Well, he is using the power of the bully pulpit. 06:23 While at the same time conservatives 06:26 with his own establish would fight him all the way. 06:28 So I find it's interesting 06:30 that the pope is really reaching 06:31 a worldwide audience going way over their heads, 06:34 it was sort of an old reaganesque trick, 06:37 you know, to go past the media 06:40 and speak directly to the people. 06:42 Well, Roosevelt did it with the fireside chats. 06:44 Yeah, that's true. Yeah, on the radio. 06:47 I mean, I don't remember seeing it. 06:49 No, my Grandpa used to talk about that a lot. 06:51 Yeah, and I think that was... 06:53 If anything that was the key to his power or longevity. 06:56 Absolutely, yeah. 06:58 He cut through the system and spoke directly to people. 06:59 That's a good thing 07:01 we ended the whole idea of consecutive terms 07:05 and limited it to two 07:06 because Roosevelt was becoming too powerful 07:08 for his own good 07:09 and for the good of this country. 07:10 Well, yeah, I don't know 07:12 that bad things happened for the country 07:13 but it set a bad president in Roosevelt. 07:15 Oh, he tried to stack the court, 07:16 remember that with 15 justices while he was in the court. 07:18 Well, he did many things that were very autocratic, 07:20 but overall the country ran well under Roosevelt. 07:24 But never in my life, 07:26 in my 58 years at least to the time of comprehension 07:30 which may be two years old, 07:32 is have I seen religious leaders 07:34 have such impact on political leaders, 07:39 probably not since Vatican II 07:43 and certainly not since John Paul II. 07:46 John Paul II was a giant, I mean, 07:49 when you think about when he came on board, 07:51 when he was elected in 1978 by the College of Cardinals 07:55 and that white smoke went off the chimney from... 08:01 From the Sistine Chapel. The Sistine Chapel. 08:04 People don't realize it by the time 08:06 he entered his papacy and the time that he died, 08:10 the Catholic church had gone from 57 nations 08:13 where they had ambassadors to 57 nations, 08:16 okay, and ambassadors from those countries 08:18 represented at the Vatican, at the Holy Sea 08:21 which is the state arm of the Vatican 08:24 or the Catholic Church. 08:27 It went up to 187, 08:29 so when you consider how many ambassadorships 08:34 and how much influence Pope 08:35 John Paul II had was tremendous. 08:37 And now you have Pope Francis coming along 08:40 after the debacle leadership of Pope 08:43 Benedict XVI coming along, 08:46 and Benedict XVI was very anti-ecumenical 08:49 for the most part. 08:50 Very much of, you know, 08:53 let's go back to pre-Vatican II and Vatican I ways. 08:57 To a pope 08:58 who really is trying to restore the legacy of Pope 09:01 John Paul II 09:03 and who's a thousand times 09:05 I would say even more charismatic 09:06 than John Paul II and that to me is significant. 09:10 I don't so much disagree with you, 09:12 I would rephrase it. 09:15 And you think about this, I think you will agree with me. 09:19 All of the important documents of John Paul II's reign 09:23 were written by Ratzinger. 09:25 They were like peas in a pod 09:27 and both of them were involved with Vatican II. 09:30 Ratzinger being the one 09:31 who became Pope Benedict the XVI. 09:33 Yes, Ratzinger, he was Cardinal Ratzinger. 09:35 Joseph Ratzinger. 09:38 So I would put them together, 09:39 they both had the same attitude, 09:40 they both were a part of Vatican II 09:43 but had re-sorted in many areas 09:47 and we're trying to roll it back. 09:48 Yes. 09:50 And we don't quite know where Francis is taking up, 09:54 but his style is very inclusive and open. 09:57 Well, he's already been accused of saying 09:59 that he wants to have a Vatican III. 10:01 So which by the way a lot of Catholic divine 10:05 so to speak have been arguing for such for the last 20 years. 10:09 And even when I was attending Baylor University, 10:12 Richard Hilborn, 10:14 who is the head of the Church history department 10:17 in the School of Religion and Theology 10:19 there at Baylor at the Truett Seminary. 10:22 He said there is a ton of Catholic priests and bishops 10:26 who were angling for a Vatican III 10:28 to resolve unresolved issues back leftover in Vatican II, 10:34 such as women's ordination and so on, 10:37 and women participating, 10:40 and women leadership in general, 10:42 and this is a big deal. 10:44 So when the pope took a step forward, a leap, 10:47 not a step forward necessarily 10:49 but a leap towards inclusiveness 10:52 even for gay people within the church. 10:56 You know, 10:59 he is grabbing the attention of the world, 11:01 and I don't know if he fully really understands himself 11:06 what he's done in terms of accomplishing 11:10 such great power to himself. 11:12 I know, I obviously don't know all the inner workings 11:15 but I think if he wants Vatican III, 11:17 he can call Vatican III. 11:18 That's true. 11:19 And he might die for it too. 11:22 I shouldn't laugh at that. 11:24 Until you said it, 11:25 I never really thought about it, didn't. 11:27 With his present call for inclusiveness 11:30 and with a way we are going worldwide Vatican III 11:35 might be not so much a Catholic convocation 11:40 but a syncretistic ingathering, 11:44 because in theory 11:45 when they hold these Vatican's, these are all Christian, 11:48 but in practice its Catholics. 11:50 But they call it ecumenical councils 11:52 even Vatican I and Vatican II 11:53 were called ecumenical councils. 11:55 So in theory 11:57 they are supposed to be ecumenical 11:58 but in fact they're not 12:01 but... 12:03 You know, I'll give just a little bit of recap, 12:06 my voice is failing me but religion, the pope, 12:12 the leader of Eastern Orthodox and others, 12:14 they have got influenced like never before. 12:16 Where is this going though? 12:18 Well, I think their aim is to achieve world peace 12:21 through whatever means possible and it seems to me that 12:26 if they can find common enemies to rally around, 12:30 then they have a cause, 12:32 and their cause is world peace at whatever costs it seems. 12:37 And world leaders are more and more 12:40 turning to them for ideas 12:41 and solutions, for answers. 12:45 In the gospel account told in Matthew, 12:48 Jesus spoke a sermon from the mount. 12:51 In many ways 12:53 it was a proclamation of His kingdom, 12:55 and what I find interesting is after He went through 12:59 all of their religious laws and indeed any, 13:01 many of their social laws 13:04 is it at the end it said the people heard him gladly, 13:09 but why? 13:11 It gives the reason, it said, 13:12 because he spoke with authority not as their regular leaders, 13:16 particularly their church leaders. 13:17 Now, we're faced 13:19 with a little conundrum nowadays 13:20 because many church leaders of different denominations, 13:24 you know, the radical ones even in the radical Islam 13:28 all the way to the Pope of Rome, 13:30 they're increasingly speaking with authority 13:33 as the Bible says haughty things on occasion, 13:36 but true authority is moral authority, 13:40 and I think 13:42 there is a greater need for religious entities 13:45 to emphasize the spirituality of their faith of adherence. 13:49 And less of a need for them to be politically involved, 13:53 less of a need for them to be throwing their weight 13:56 around in a religious sense and even to speak heretically, 14:00 less of a need for a Kumbaya, 14:02 everybody joining together approach. 14:07 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2016-08-15