Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
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we were getting
into some heavy weeds
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on the religious
involvement in so many...
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Are you getting lost
in the weeds, Lincoln?
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Yeah.
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Well, not lost but
they were heavy weeds.
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Let me tell you
how heavy it gets
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and I couldn't
believe this when it happened.
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Donald Trump
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who has emerged at the
front of a pretty mixed pack
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of Republican
candidates has made some...
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Pretty wild group.
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And he's made
some extreme statements
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and one of them,
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the pope said that
this was unchristian.
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Well, about not
allowing Muslim...
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It was about the wars...
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It was about the wars I
remember building the war.
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That too,
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I think he was
meaning in fact for both.
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But I can hardly remember,
in fact I can't remember before
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that where a pope
certainly and hardly
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any other religious leader
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compended so
openly and dismissively
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of a major political leader,
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that's almost without
president now in that time.
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Even more than
that just last week
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Pope Francis called for
an end to cultural wars,
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and so that must be worldwide
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but certainly
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we have our fair
share of cultural wars
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here in the United States.
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But I couldn't help
think when I heard that...
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He called for
an end to meanness,
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and called for a
spirit of inclusivity.
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That's very good,
an end to meanness.
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It's sort of
like a war on terror,
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you know, you're against an idea
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but when the Pope of
Rome made that comment
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about not being a
Christian to Trump.
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We're in a different
dynamic but I think underneath
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it is sort of a
funny echo of the Emperor,
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who was it?
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One of the holy Roman emperors
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was brought to
task by the then pope.
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When the pope
condemned him, of course,
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he would remove the
loyalty of all of his subjects
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and so the Emperor
was reduced to coming
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and begging in the
snow for three days
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I remember out in
front of the pope.
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Henry Navarre,
Henry the IV I believe
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who became the
emperor of France.
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That's long given in his example
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of the extreme
power of the church
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over political figures.
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And of course back
then if a religious leader,
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the pope particularly in Europe,
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if he said that and
condemned the leader
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and said he was not a Christian
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'cause which is another
way or a lighter way of saying,
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you know, you're excommunicated.
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Then he is inciting rebellion.
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I think this pope has
done a lot of good things.
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Many good things.
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And thank you for correcting me,
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I don't...
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By no means can we
put portray him as wrong
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on every one of this issues.
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He speaks very
clearly on moral issues.
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But I'm also concerned about
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the more popular
the pope becomes,
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the more power has
either in his hands
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for a good change
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or for a change
that appears good,
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and we all
blindly go down a road
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that may not be good at all.
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And that's what concerns me
is that more and more of church
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and state are joining
together for good things
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but in the end
where does it lead us...
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Well, it's a bad dynamic,
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it never comes to good end
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when church and
state are working
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in tandem like that.
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At the very least it excludes
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those who are not of that faith.
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Yes.
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I mean, that's instant.
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Well, there was a...
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In Economist
Magazine there was a...
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Actually it was by John Allen,
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actually in Crux Magazine
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which is used to be a subsidiary
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at Boston Globe.
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It's now independent
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but it's an online
newspaper so to speak.
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And there was an
article in there on the title
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"Why the pope is in a hurry?"
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and then it /...Armageddon.
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He believes that in
the end based upon a novel
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by Lord Henry I
think is his name,
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regarding the future
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written back at
the turn of the century
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in the late 1800s, early 1900s
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that the last
great battle would be
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between secular
humanists and the atheists
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versus Rome or the church.
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And he believes
that the church...
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The pope
believes that the church
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will be united all as one,
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all of
Christianity coming together,
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all third world religions Islam,
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Hinduism,
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Buddhism, Daoism,
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they find all
common cause to make war
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against their common enemies,
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secular humanism
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which I find interesting
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because if
Armageddon is a battle
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against secular humanist,
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then that means
all those religions
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who don't quite agree
with that worldwide unity
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of all religions coming together
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are going to be put
in the same category
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as secular humanists
and treated badly as heretic
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so to speak.
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I guess, it's not impossible.
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I had read a story
couple of years ago
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telling that
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and we're all
influenced by what we read.
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And it's possible
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if that's had a
powerful effect on this pope.
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You know, you and I
can't prophetically,
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automatically accept that view.
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This seems a more likely one.
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I also think that
some of the actions
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of the Catholic Church and
the statements of this pope
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because of things like the
prophecies of Saint Malachy
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that hinted, well,
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as Malachy said the last
pope reigns over the church
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at the time of great distress
when the seven hills pass away.
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So it's a
apocalyptic terminology.
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And people forget that
when the pope speaks, like,
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last week he suggested that...
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He's just an individual.
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That women become deacons
within the Catholic Church
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which is a huge, huge
idea and pronouncement.
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Lot of commentators
came out afterwards and said,
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yeah, but that's just an idea.
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He is full of ideas
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and then the end of
the article it said,
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yeah, but you know what?
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The rest of the
world likes what he says
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and so he is changing
ideas and around the world
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so he is influencing the
world while at the same time...
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Well, he is using the
power of the bully pulpit.
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While at the same
time conservatives
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with his own establish
would fight him all the way.
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So I find it's interesting
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that the pope is really reaching
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a worldwide audience
going way over their heads,
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it was sort of an
old reaganesque trick,
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you know, to go past the media
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and speak
directly to the people.
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Well, Roosevelt did it
with the fireside chats.
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Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, on the radio.
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I mean, I don't
remember seeing it.
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No, my Grandpa used
to talk about that a lot.
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Yeah, and I think that was...
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If anything that was the
key to his power or longevity.
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Absolutely, yeah.
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He cut through the system
and spoke directly to people.
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That's a good thing
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we ended the whole
idea of consecutive terms
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and limited it to two
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because Roosevelt
was becoming too powerful
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for his own good
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and for the
good of this country.
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Well, yeah, I don't know
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that bad things
happened for the country
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but it set a bad
president in Roosevelt.
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Oh, he tried to stack the court,
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remember that with 15 justices
while he was in the court.
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Well, he did many things
that were very autocratic,
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but overall the country
ran well under Roosevelt.
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But never in my life,
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in my 58 years at least
to the time of comprehension
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which may be two years old,
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is have I seen religious leaders
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have such impact
on political leaders,
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probably not since Vatican II
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and certainly not
since John Paul II.
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John Paul II
was a giant, I mean,
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when you think about
when he came on board,
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when he was elected in
1978 by the College of Cardinals
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and that white smoke
went off the chimney from...
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From the Sistine
Chapel. The Sistine Chapel.
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People don't
realize it by the time
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he entered his papacy
and the time that he died,
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the Catholic church
had gone from 57 nations
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where they had
ambassadors to 57 nations,
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okay, and
ambassadors from those countries
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represented at the
Vatican, at the Holy Sea
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which is the
state arm of the Vatican
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or the Catholic Church.
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It went up to 187,
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so when you consider
how many ambassadorships
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and how much influence Pope
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John Paul II had was tremendous.
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And now you have
Pope Francis coming along
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after the debacle
leadership of Pope
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Benedict XVI coming along,
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and Benedict XVI
was very anti-ecumenical
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for the most part.
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Very much of, you know,
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let's go back to pre-Vatican
II and Vatican I ways.
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To a pope
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who really is trying to
restore the legacy of Pope
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John Paul II
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and who's a thousand times
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I would say
even more charismatic
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than John Paul II and
that to me is significant.
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I don't so much
disagree with you,
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I would rephrase it.
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And you think about this, I
think you will agree with me.
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All of the important documents
of John Paul II's reign
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were written by Ratzinger.
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They were like peas in a pod
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and both of them were
involved with Vatican II.
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Ratzinger being the one
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who became Pope
Benedict the XVI.
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Yes, Ratzinger, he
was Cardinal Ratzinger.
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Joseph Ratzinger.
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So I would put them together,
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they both had the same attitude,
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they both were a
part of Vatican II
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but had re-sorted in many areas
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and we're
trying to roll it back.
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Yes.
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And we don't quite know
where Francis is taking up,
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but his style is
very inclusive and open.
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Well, he's already
been accused of saying
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that he wants to
have a Vatican III.
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So which by the way a
lot of Catholic divine
00:10:01.63\00:10:05.73
so to speak have been arguing
for such for the last 20 years.
00:10:05.77\00:10:09.87
And even when I was
attending Baylor University,
00:10:09.90\00:10:12.71
Richard Hilborn,
00:10:12.74\00:10:14.08
who is the head of the
Church history department
00:10:14.11\00:10:17.05
in the School of
Religion and Theology
00:10:17.08\00:10:19.91
there at Baylor at
the Truett Seminary.
00:10:19.95\00:10:22.28
He said there is a ton of
Catholic priests and bishops
00:10:22.32\00:10:26.05
who were angling
for a Vatican III
00:10:26.09\00:10:28.86
to resolve unresolved issues
back leftover in Vatican II,
00:10:28.89\00:10:34.13
such as women's
ordination and so on,
00:10:34.16\00:10:37.87
and women participating,
00:10:37.90\00:10:39.97
and women leadership in general,
00:10:40.00\00:10:42.24
and this is a big deal.
00:10:42.27\00:10:44.27
So when the pope took
a step forward, a leap,
00:10:44.31\00:10:47.44
not a step forward necessarily
00:10:47.48\00:10:49.24
but a leap towards inclusiveness
00:10:49.28\00:10:52.48
even for gay
people within the church.
00:10:52.51\00:10:56.79
You know,
00:10:56.82\00:10:59.22
he is grabbing the
attention of the world,
00:10:59.25\00:11:01.66
and I don't know if he
fully really understands himself
00:11:01.69\00:11:05.99
what he's done in
terms of accomplishing
00:11:06.03\00:11:09.96
such great power to himself.
00:11:10.00\00:11:12.80
I know, I obviously don't
know all the inner workings
00:11:12.83\00:11:14.97
but I think if he
wants Vatican III,
00:11:15.00\00:11:17.07
he can call Vatican III.
00:11:17.11\00:11:18.44
That's true.
00:11:18.47\00:11:19.81
And he might die for it too.
00:11:19.84\00:11:22.84
I shouldn't laugh at that.
00:11:22.88\00:11:24.21
Until you said it,
00:11:24.25\00:11:25.58
I never really
thought about it, didn't.
00:11:25.61\00:11:26.98
With his present
call for inclusiveness
00:11:27.02\00:11:30.29
and with a way we are
going worldwide Vatican III
00:11:30.32\00:11:35.69
might be not so much
a Catholic convocation
00:11:35.72\00:11:40.23
but a syncretistic ingathering,
00:11:40.26\00:11:44.10
because in theory
00:11:44.13\00:11:45.47
when they hold these Vatican's,
these are all Christian,
00:11:45.50\00:11:48.74
but in practice its Catholics.
00:11:48.77\00:11:50.31
But they call it
ecumenical councils
00:11:50.34\00:11:52.14
even Vatican I and Vatican II
00:11:52.17\00:11:53.61
were called ecumenical councils.
00:11:53.64\00:11:55.08
So in theory
00:11:55.11\00:11:57.05
they are
supposed to be ecumenical
00:11:57.08\00:11:58.58
but in fact they're not
00:11:58.61\00:12:01.18
but...
00:12:01.22\00:12:03.28
You know, I'll give
just a little bit of recap,
00:12:03.32\00:12:06.82
my voice is failing me
but religion, the pope,
00:12:06.86\00:12:12.89
the leader of
Eastern Orthodox and others,
00:12:12.93\00:12:14.63
they have got
influenced like never before.
00:12:14.66\00:12:16.53
Where is this going though?
00:12:16.56\00:12:18.30
Well, I think their aim
is to achieve world peace
00:12:18.33\00:12:21.50
through whatever means
possible and it seems to me that
00:12:21.54\00:12:26.54
if they can find common
enemies to rally around,
00:12:26.57\00:12:30.41
then they have a cause,
00:12:30.45\00:12:32.11
and their cause is world peace
at whatever costs it seems.
00:12:32.15\00:12:37.92
And world
leaders are more and more
00:12:37.95\00:12:40.16
turning to them for ideas
00:12:40.19\00:12:41.76
and solutions, for answers.
00:12:41.79\00:12:45.26
In the gospel
account told in Matthew,
00:12:45.29\00:12:48.60
Jesus spoke a
sermon from the mount.
00:12:48.63\00:12:51.77
In many ways
00:12:51.80\00:12:53.13
it was a
proclamation of His kingdom,
00:12:53.17\00:12:55.50
and what I find interesting
is after He went through
00:12:55.54\00:12:59.07
all of their
religious laws and indeed any,
00:12:59.11\00:13:01.84
many of their social laws
00:13:01.88\00:13:04.61
is it at the end it said
the people heard him gladly,
00:13:04.65\00:13:09.78
but why?
00:13:09.82\00:13:11.15
It gives the reason, it said,
00:13:11.19\00:13:12.52
because he spoke with authority
not as their regular leaders,
00:13:12.55\00:13:16.12
particularly
their church leaders.
00:13:16.16\00:13:17.73
Now, we're faced
00:13:17.76\00:13:19.09
with a little conundrum nowadays
00:13:19.13\00:13:20.46
because many church leaders
of different denominations,
00:13:20.50\00:13:24.63
you know, the radical
ones even in the radical Islam
00:13:24.67\00:13:28.17
all the way to the Pope of Rome,
00:13:28.20\00:13:30.11
they're increasingly
speaking with authority
00:13:30.14\00:13:33.07
as the Bible says
haughty things on occasion,
00:13:33.11\00:13:36.48
but true authority
is moral authority,
00:13:36.51\00:13:40.72
and I think
00:13:40.75\00:13:42.18
there is a greater
need for religious entities
00:13:42.22\00:13:45.62
to emphasize the spirituality
of their faith of adherence.
00:13:45.65\00:13:49.39
And less of a need for
them to be politically involved,
00:13:49.42\00:13:53.66
less of a need for them
to be throwing their weight
00:13:53.70\00:13:56.23
around in a religious sense
and even to speak heretically,
00:13:56.26\00:14:00.70
less of a need for a Kumbaya,
00:14:00.74\00:14:02.90
everybody joining
together approach.
00:14:02.94\00:14:07.01
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:14:07.04\00:14:10.18