Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reid
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000317B
|
00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break, we were about to enter into a big discussion 00:10 about the threat to religious liberty 00:12 in the United States from secularism, right? 00:14 Oh, yeah! 00:16 I was curious on your opinion on where it was coming from, 00:18 where you really saw the greatest threat? 00:20 I mean, the cycle of religious right 00:22 though they're politically active... 00:24 uh, religious groups. 00:27 I was hesitating with this, I was gonna say protestants, 00:30 but it's really a coalition of Catholic and Protestant. 00:32 But they are inclined to rail against 00:34 secularism and Pope Benedict, 00:38 in one of his pivotal speeches made secularism 00:41 the epitome of the threat facing. 00:43 I don't think so. 00:44 Secularism has always been there. 00:46 Yeah. 00:47 And actually Christianity found 00:48 that it could defeat secularism. 00:50 You know, the pagan or secularist Roman Empire 00:54 fell to Christianity. 00:56 Truths can overcome it, 00:57 but paganism really is directly antagonistic. 01:03 What, what we have seen in the United States, 01:06 and they are often throwing up a sort of the-- 01:09 is the Americans... 01:11 No, not Americans United. 01:12 The... 01:14 What's the group, Freedom from Religion Foundation. 01:16 Yes. 01:19 Which has acted in a spoiling row with the cases 01:22 that brought up to the Supreme Court. 01:23 They have made against the pledge of allegiance. 01:25 Right. 01:27 And probably think of some of the other aspects, 01:29 but thy just don't like any-- 01:31 I think like statues and stuff, that amount to images-- 01:32 Oh, yeah, they think of Muhammad statues, 01:34 they don't want religion in the public space at all. 01:36 Right. 01:38 The constitution guarantees that, 01:39 so they pretty much gonna fail, 01:41 but they are not a large movement. 01:42 Right. 01:43 It's just a few people 01:45 who are well funded that are pushing. 01:46 Right. 01:48 And secularism in the sense of indifference 01:49 is always the enemy of religion, 01:52 but I don't think that's the enemy of religious liberty. 01:54 Right. The legal structure remains. 01:58 No, I think the enemy of religious liberty 02:00 is what it always has been its religious people. 02:05 The enemy of the Protestantism was radical Catholicism. 02:09 The enemy of the Christians 02:12 in the holy land was radical Islam. 02:14 It could be that in the little Podunk town 02:17 with lot of prejudice. 02:18 The enemy of the Muslim shopkeeper is bigoted... 02:23 Baptist from the, you know, the corner store 02:25 where they get themselves ripped up. 02:27 Certainly there was a Baptist down south 02:28 wanted to burn the Quran just to show that he is free. 02:31 Yes. Well, that's a provocation. 02:32 Yes. 02:33 Ah, so now I don't think 02:35 secularism is the threat at all. 02:36 It's a challenge, but it's not an existential threat. 02:40 Right. 02:41 Its religion run amok with the sense of entitlement 02:43 which we mentioned elsewhere. 02:45 I see in the United States the more and more of the cases 02:49 that are being brought into public sphere 02:50 and even some up to the Supreme Court. 02:53 These are people with the strong religious view point 02:55 that they want to establish a narrow entitlement for it... 02:58 Right. 02:59 And to be empowered to do that 03:01 regardless of the fall out 03:02 not just on society but on other faiths. 03:04 Right. 03:05 I would agree with you on that and then I would add 03:08 a sort of religious indifference 03:10 by believers, "believers". 03:13 And so, you are allowing, you are seeing, you know, 03:15 this one individual that's having the entitlement 03:17 and others who maybe don't have that... 03:20 you know that strong personal relationship with Christ. 03:22 They may identify as religious believers, 03:24 but they don't have that, you know personal commitment 03:27 and so they're sort of indifferent 03:30 to whatever is happening around us. 03:32 Well, I'm back to the model that I have used a lot. 03:33 There's too much religion, and this religion run amok, 03:36 not enough spirituality. 03:37 Exactly. 03:39 Without spirituality, you know 03:41 things are can deteriorate rapidly 03:43 and Jesus wondering out loud 03:46 whether he was prophesying in these man, 03:49 God manifestation, but he wondered out loud 03:52 and He says when the Son of Mancomes, 03:53 will He find faith in the earth. 03:54 Ah, yes. 03:56 But if you can guarantee, you'll find lot of religion. 03:57 Right. 03:59 I mean people are superstitious till the last bit. 04:03 And what's interesting after 9/11 04:05 and so after the '80s 04:07 when the computerization of our society came 04:09 and the discoveries of the outer reaches of space, 04:13 at least we think we're reaching for them, 04:16 but with greater knowledge 04:17 curiously has come greater superstition. 04:21 Yes. 04:22 So at least religion in the general sense 04:25 or the reactionary sense of sort of the mysticism, 04:29 it's on the rise. 04:30 Yeah. But not spirituality. 04:32 But not spirituality. 04:34 And the way a part of spirituality 04:35 that I think is most important for our discussion, 04:38 public discussion is a spirituality 04:41 that moderates my human reaction 04:43 or human interactions 04:44 where I treat someone with dignity. 04:46 Yes. 04:47 And as the US Constitution even alludes to. 04:50 We should treat people as our fellow creatures 04:53 from the Creator God. 04:54 I mean that's automatically, if you think that through, 04:56 that should give great respect for all people. 04:59 Yeah. 05:00 Because I'm not inherently 05:02 of a different order than someone else, 05:03 I came from the same potter. 05:05 Absolutely. 05:07 Same clay, I shouldn't have any more rights 05:10 than anyone else. 05:11 Right. Not less either. 05:12 Not less, not more. So it gives dignity. 05:14 Yeah, and we shouldn't use others 05:16 to advantage ourselves, 05:18 you know, we should feel compassion for individuals 05:21 who haven't had the same opportunities that we have. 05:24 Absolutely. Like... 05:26 In the USA, I'm gonna, 05:28 when we talk about religious liberty 05:29 after we slapped down the US on certain fronts. 05:32 When you make a high stand, 05:34 you're more subject to criticism. 05:35 Yeah. 05:37 So it's not that the US is the worst country by any means, 05:38 but one of the worst things 05:39 that happened in the war on terror after 9/11, 05:43 and it's not really been publicly repudiated 05:47 was in Guantanamo 05:49 and at detention camp in Bagram. 05:53 They were to get at some of the detainees, 05:57 they were ripping up the Qurans, 05:59 flushing them down the toilets, spitting on and kicking it. 06:02 I mean, that is an incredible comment of grose, 06:06 not just inhumanity, 06:07 intolerance of another religious view point. 06:11 You can understand the emotion 06:13 which was perhaps misdirected in 06:14 because they didn't know that the person was guilty. 06:16 But let's just say, they blame that other religion 06:18 for something. 06:20 But then do what you would never want anyone 06:23 to do to your friend. 06:24 I mean, there is a total forgetfulness 06:26 of the religious dynamic. 06:27 Yeah, yeah. 06:29 Now it's a... 06:30 I like your phrase, it's religious entitlement, 06:33 I think that's absolutely important 06:35 because you know we are so, 06:38 it seems like we are holding on it so tight 06:40 and we want our own beliefs to be so protected 06:42 and yet we for some reason 06:45 there is this television that we are not seeing 06:48 or if we are ignoring the rights of other individuals 06:54 and we actually are justifying. 06:57 We're moving the rights from those individuals. 06:59 Well, it easily happens when, 07:01 if people don't have full spirituality 07:03 or true understanding of their faith. 07:05 They believe... and intermittently 07:07 if she is not gonna watch this program, 07:09 my wife invokes this often. 07:11 We have a difference, God's on my side. 07:13 You are damned 07:15 or you will have to answer before the judgment. 07:19 We need to fight that. 07:20 You can believe that in yourself 07:22 but the other person may think that too, 07:24 if they, you know, 07:25 if they have any commitment to their religion 07:28 and we should worry 07:31 that we are doing what God wants, 07:33 but not have the sense of entitlement 07:35 that I am God's instrument of justice, vengeance, 07:40 payback or whatever. 07:41 Yes. 07:42 That's a very dangerous attitude, 07:44 but religion through the ages 07:45 and some of it in the present day 07:48 follows true on that. 07:49 Yeah, I know...you know, we mentioned many times 07:51 this phrase of individual conscience 07:53 and that's exactly what it is. 07:55 How has the spirit motivated you? 07:57 Like I'll share something that, I'm sure you know about. 08:00 But most of our viewers don't. 08:02 Some of the Right Wing religious, political activist, 08:08 long description in the United States, 08:11 have been little frustrated of late, 08:13 getting legislative action 08:15 so they have taken, they're going to Africa 08:16 and feeding philosophies there to the different politicians. 08:19 And few years ago there was a spate 08:22 of newly empowered administrations 08:26 who would have been intuited by these people 08:28 and the track is very plain. 08:31 And so, they immediately enacted legislation 08:33 and in particular death penalty for unrepentant gays. 08:39 No, I am not pro gay by any stretch 08:41 as far as my religious sensibility 08:43 and what the Bible says. 08:45 But I mean what person of faith 08:47 is ever entitled to suggest that is a solution. 08:51 And, you know, 08:55 the track was run right back to the US, 08:57 which tells me that 08:58 if they had a similar track in the United States, 09:02 they would use legislation to-- 09:04 maybe not the death penalty 09:05 but to support probably very anti-Christian actions 09:10 toward non-believers 09:12 or people of the different morals. 09:14 Well, we've talked about, 09:15 when we were doing a show 09:17 on international religious freedom, 09:18 we talked about, 09:20 you know, different strains of other faiths 09:22 and within a faith one strain, 09:25 the more dominant and the one in power 09:27 not recognizing the rights of the individuals 09:31 within their own religious beliefs 09:33 and I think that's where we're sort of talking about here is, 09:36 you know, as you said we're all human beings, 09:38 we're all creations of God and yet not recognizing, 09:42 you know, sort of saying that 09:43 this person is a lesser individual 09:45 that they do not have the rights. 09:46 It happens easy, I'll pick on the group 09:51 that are begging to be picked out lately. 09:53 You know, Islam, but I'm making a trivial, 09:55 not a trivial point, but a point on a triviality. 09:57 There is a huge split within the Islamic world, 10:00 not the only one but the big overall split 10:02 is between Shia and Sunni 10:05 and they kill each other 10:06 different times quiet frequently. 10:09 What is the difference. It's not doctrinal. 10:12 It's purely over who was the next Khalif after Muhammad. 10:17 To an outside observer this is almost nothing. 10:20 I mean it's not of no consequence 10:23 but it doesn't seem like killing offense, 10:25 it doesn't seem that it should divide whole communities 10:28 but it just shows in this case of one religion, 10:31 but you can apply to any. 10:32 How very small things when you kick in the attitude of... 10:36 I've got God on my side, you are now an apostate 10:38 and this is what you would do. 10:40 And we need to guard against them 10:42 because it creeps into all faiths 10:44 and at the best of times, 10:46 but it will turn toxic when you allow the state 10:50 to follow through on the inclinations 10:53 of these people of faith. 10:55 Now Islam, it happens quick, more quickly, 10:57 it goes to critical mass more quickly 10:59 because they don't quiet... 11:01 Because of the Quran and Muhammad's injunctions, 11:04 they don't really understand separation of church and state, 11:06 so we have a wonderful protective mechanism 11:09 in the west and back to, you know, 11:11 exhibit A for Liberty Magazine and religious liberty. 11:14 Keep the wall high. Yeah. 11:16 Keep the separation strong. 11:18 Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. 11:19 I think going back to the beginning of our conversation 11:22 and going back to beginning of our country, 11:24 you know, the mechanisms that were put in place 11:28 by our founding fathers here in the United States 11:30 were so incredibly appropriate and something that, you know, 11:36 I'm so glad have state firm, we stay true to 11:39 because I think that those mechanisms, 11:40 those legal mechanisms of separations 11:42 of church in state 11:44 but also the recognition of religious freedom 11:46 for our individual citizens, 11:48 I think that is what is keeping us from, 11:52 you know, when we have these situations, 11:54 these emotional situations of conflict 11:56 between religions or between religion, 11:58 religious people and so I'm incredibly grateful for those. 12:03 When the president gives his state of the nation address, 12:06 of course there is a positive spin on everything 12:09 and we would think no less of him. 12:11 It needs to be as positive and as optimistic as possible. 12:15 And of course religious liberty, 12:17 when we speak of that, 12:18 we can be positive and optimistic 12:20 that in the United States particularly, 12:23 religious freedom is still guaranteed, 12:25 no matter what social dislocations 12:27 or local prejudices may exist. 12:30 But there is another side and I'm reminded 12:32 of what Ellen White once wrote 12:34 to the Seventh-day Adventist membership 12:36 in their early day, she said, you know, 12:39 if we could say it's not as bad as it appears, 12:42 that would be okay. 12:43 But she says, it's much, much worse 12:45 and on one level that is so with religious liberty 12:48 in the United States, 12:49 not because we are restricted 12:51 but because the concept of religious freedom 12:54 is rapidly changing to one of religious entitlement 12:58 and that is being fed by a sense of fear 13:02 at conflicts between religious faiths globally 13:05 that are migrating to the United States. 13:07 We must make sure that we cherish, 13:11 proclaim and advance religious liberty at any cost. 13:17 For liberty insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2016-04-04