Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break, we were about
to enter into a big discussion
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about the threat
to religious liberty
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in the United States
from secularism, right?
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Oh, yeah!
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I was curious on your opinion
on where it was coming from,
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where you really
saw the greatest threat?
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I mean, the cycle
of religious right
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though they're
politically active...
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uh, religious groups.
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I was hesitating with this,
I was gonna say protestants,
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but it's really a coalition
of Catholic and Protestant.
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But they are
inclined to rail against
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secularism and Pope Benedict,
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in one of his pivotal
speeches made secularism
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the epitome of
the threat facing.
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I don't think so.
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Secularism has
always been there.
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Yeah.
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And actually Christianity found
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that it could defeat secularism.
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You know, the pagan or
secularist Roman Empire
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fell to Christianity.
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Truths can overcome it,
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but paganism really
is directly antagonistic.
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What, what we have
seen in the United States,
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and they are often
throwing up a sort of the--
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is the Americans...
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No, not Americans United.
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The...
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What's the group, Freedom
from Religion Foundation.
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Yes.
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Which has acted in a
spoiling row with the cases
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that brought up
to the Supreme Court.
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They have made against
the pledge of allegiance.
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Right.
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And probably think of
some of the other aspects,
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but thy just don't like any--
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I think like statues and
stuff, that amount to images--
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Oh, yeah, they
think of Muhammad statues,
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they don't want religion
in the public space at all.
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Right.
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The
constitution guarantees that,
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so they pretty much gonna fail,
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but they are not
a large movement.
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Right.
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It's just a few people
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who are well
funded that are pushing.
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Right.
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And secularism in
the sense of indifference
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is always the enemy of religion,
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but I don't think that's
the enemy of religious liberty.
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Right. The legal
structure remains.
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No, I think the
enemy of religious liberty
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is what it always has
been its religious people.
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The enemy of the Protestantism
was radical Catholicism.
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The enemy of the Christians
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in the holy land
was radical Islam.
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It could be that in
the little Podunk town
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with lot of prejudice.
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The enemy of the Muslim
shopkeeper is bigoted...
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Baptist from the, you
know, the corner store
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where they get
themselves ripped up.
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Certainly there was
a Baptist down south
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wanted to burn the Quran
just to show that he is free.
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Yes. Well, that's a provocation.
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Yes.
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Ah, so now I don't think
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secularism is the threat at all.
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It's a challenge, but
it's not an existential threat.
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Right.
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Its religion run amok
with the sense of entitlement
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which we mentioned elsewhere.
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I see in the United States
the more and more of the cases
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that are being
brought into public sphere
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and even some up
to the Supreme Court.
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These are people with the
strong religious view point
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that they want to establish
a narrow entitlement for it...
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Right.
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And to be empowered to do that
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regardless of the fall out
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not just on society
but on other faiths.
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Right.
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I would agree with you
on that and then I would add
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a sort of religious indifference
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by believers, "believers".
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And so, you are allowing,
you are seeing, you know,
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this one individual
that's having the entitlement
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and others who
maybe don't have that...
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you know that strong personal
relationship with Christ.
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They may identify
as religious believers,
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but they don't have that,
you know personal commitment
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and so they're
sort of indifferent
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to whatever is
happening around us.
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Well, I'm back to the
model that I have used a lot.
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There's too much religion,
and this religion run amok,
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not enough spirituality.
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Exactly.
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Without spirituality, you know
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things are can
deteriorate rapidly
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and Jesus wondering out loud
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whether he was
prophesying in these man,
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God manifestation,
but he wondered out loud
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and He says when
the Son of Mancomes,
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will He find faith in the earth.
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Ah, yes.
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But if you can guarantee,
you'll find lot of religion.
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Right.
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I mean people are
superstitious till the last bit.
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And what's
interesting after 9/11
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and so after the '80s
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when the computerization
of our society came
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and the discoveries of
the outer reaches of space,
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at least we think
we're reaching for them,
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but with greater knowledge
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curiously has come
greater superstition.
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Yes.
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So at least
religion in the general sense
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or the reactionary sense
of sort of the mysticism,
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it's on the rise.
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Yeah. But not spirituality.
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But not spirituality.
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And the way a
part of spirituality
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that I think is most
important for our discussion,
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public
discussion is a spirituality
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that moderates my human reaction
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or human interactions
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where I treat
someone with dignity.
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Yes.
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And as the US
Constitution even alludes to.
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We should treat people
as our fellow creatures
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from the Creator God.
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I mean that's automatically,
if you think that through,
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that should give great
respect for all people.
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Yeah.
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Because I'm not inherently
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of a different
order than someone else,
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I came from the same potter.
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Absolutely.
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Same clay, I
shouldn't have any more rights
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than anyone else.
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Right. Not less either.
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Not less, not more.
So it gives dignity.
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Yeah, and we
shouldn't use others
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to advantage ourselves,
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you know, we should feel
compassion for individuals
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who haven't had the same
opportunities that we have.
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Absolutely. Like...
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In the USA, I'm gonna,
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when we talk
about religious liberty
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after we slapped down
the US on certain fronts.
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When you make a high stand,
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you're more
subject to criticism.
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Yeah.
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So it's not that the US is
the worst country by any means,
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but one of the worst things
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that happened in the
war on terror after 9/11,
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and it's not really
been publicly repudiated
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was in Guantanamo
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and at detention camp in Bagram.
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They were to get at
some of the detainees,
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they were ripping up the Qurans,
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flushing them down the toilets,
spitting on and kicking it.
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I mean, that is an
incredible comment of grose,
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not just inhumanity,
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intolerance of
another religious view point.
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You can understand the emotion
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which was perhaps misdirected in
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because they didn't know
that the person was guilty.
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But let's just say, they
blame that other religion
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for something.
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But then do what you
would never want anyone
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to do to your friend.
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I mean, there is a
total forgetfulness
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of the religious dynamic.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Now it's a...
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I like your phrase,
it's religious entitlement,
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I think that's
absolutely important
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because you know we are so,
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it seems like we are
holding on it so tight
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and we want our own
beliefs to be so protected
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and yet we for some reason
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there is this television
that we are not seeing
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or if we are ignoring the
rights of other individuals
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and we actually are justifying.
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We're moving the
rights from those individuals.
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Well, it easily happens when,
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if people don't
have full spirituality
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or true
understanding of their faith.
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They believe...
and intermittently
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if she is not
gonna watch this program,
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my wife invokes this often.
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We have a
difference, God's on my side.
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You are damned
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or you will have to
answer before the judgment.
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We need to fight that.
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You can believe that in yourself
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but the other
person may think that too,
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if they, you know,
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if they have any
commitment to their religion
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and we should worry
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that we are
doing what God wants,
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but not have the
sense of entitlement
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that I am God's instrument
of justice, vengeance,
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payback or whatever.
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Yes.
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That's a very
dangerous attitude,
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but religion through the ages
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and some of it
in the present day
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follows true on that.
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Yeah, I know...you
know, we mentioned many times
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this phrase of
individual conscience
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and that's exactly what it is.
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How has the
spirit motivated you?
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Like I'll share something
that, I'm sure you know about.
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But most of our viewers don't.
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Some of the Right Wing
religious, political activist,
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long description
in the United States,
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have been little
frustrated of late,
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getting legislative action
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so they have taken,
they're going to Africa
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and feeding philosophies there
to the different politicians.
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And few years
ago there was a spate
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of newly
empowered administrations
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who would have been
intuited by these people
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and the track is very plain.
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And so, they
immediately enacted legislation
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and in particular death
penalty for unrepentant gays.
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No, I am not pro
gay by any stretch
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as far as my
religious sensibility
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and what the Bible says.
00:08:43.75\00:08:45.22
But I mean what person of faith
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is ever entitled to
suggest that is a solution.
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And, you know,
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the track was run
right back to the US,
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which tells me that
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if they had a similar
track in the United States,
00:08:58.90\00:09:02.00
they would use legislation to--
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maybe not the death penalty
00:09:04.04\00:09:05.44
but to support probably
very anti-Christian actions
00:09:05.47\00:09:10.25
toward non-believers
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or people of the
different morals.
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Well, we've talked about,
00:09:14.25\00:09:15.58
when we were doing a show
00:09:15.62\00:09:17.32
on international
religious freedom,
00:09:17.35\00:09:18.72
we talked about,
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you know, different
strains of other faiths
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and within a faith one strain,
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the more dominant
and the one in power
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not recognizing the
rights of the individuals
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within their own
religious beliefs
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and I think that's where we're
sort of talking about here is,
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you know, as you said
we're all human beings,
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we're all creations of
God and yet not recognizing,
00:09:38.11\00:09:42.24
you know, sort of saying that
00:09:42.28\00:09:43.61
this person is a
lesser individual
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that they do
not have the rights.
00:09:45.28\00:09:46.92
It happens easy,
I'll pick on the group
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that are begging to
be picked out lately.
00:09:51.25\00:09:53.49
You know, Islam, but
I'm making a trivial,
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not a trivial point,
but a point on a triviality.
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There is a huge split
within the Islamic world,
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not the only one but
the big overall split
00:10:00.30\00:10:02.43
is between Shia and Sunni
00:10:02.46\00:10:05.33
and they kill each other
00:10:05.37\00:10:06.70
different times
quiet frequently.
00:10:06.74\00:10:09.04
What is the
difference. It's not doctrinal.
00:10:09.07\00:10:12.11
It's purely over who was
the next Khalif after Muhammad.
00:10:12.14\00:10:17.35
To an outside observer
this is almost nothing.
00:10:17.45\00:10:20.25
I mean it's not
of no consequence
00:10:20.28\00:10:23.75
but it doesn't seem
like killing offense,
00:10:23.79\00:10:25.59
it doesn't seem that it
should divide whole communities
00:10:25.62\00:10:28.42
but it just shows in
this case of one religion,
00:10:28.46\00:10:31.06
but you can apply to any.
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How very small things when
you kick in the attitude of...
00:10:32.46\00:10:35.96
I've got God on my
side, you are now an apostate
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and this is what you would do.
00:10:38.40\00:10:40.70
And we need to
guard against them
00:10:40.74\00:10:42.20
because it
creeps into all faiths
00:10:42.24\00:10:44.37
and at the best of times,
00:10:44.41\00:10:46.78
but it will turn toxic
when you allow the state
00:10:46.81\00:10:50.55
to follow through
on the inclinations
00:10:50.58\00:10:53.95
of these people of faith.
00:10:53.98\00:10:55.35
Now Islam, it
happens quick, more quickly,
00:10:55.38\00:10:57.85
it goes to
critical mass more quickly
00:10:57.89\00:10:59.75
because they don't quiet...
00:10:59.79\00:11:01.56
Because of the Quran
and Muhammad's injunctions,
00:11:01.59\00:11:04.03
they don't really understand
separation of church and state,
00:11:04.06\00:11:06.19
so we have a
wonderful protective mechanism
00:11:06.23\00:11:09.10
in the west and
back to, you know,
00:11:09.13\00:11:11.83
exhibit A for Liberty
Magazine and religious liberty.
00:11:11.87\00:11:14.47
Keep the wall high. Yeah.
00:11:14.50\00:11:16.57
Keep the separation strong.
00:11:16.60\00:11:18.07
Yeah, no, I
completely agree with you.
00:11:18.11\00:11:19.77
I think going back to the
beginning of our conversation
00:11:19.81\00:11:22.74
and going back to
beginning of our country,
00:11:22.78\00:11:24.88
you know, the mechanisms
that were put in place
00:11:24.91\00:11:28.12
by our founding fathers
here in the United States
00:11:28.15\00:11:30.52
were so incredibly appropriate
and something that, you know,
00:11:30.55\00:11:36.02
I'm so glad have
state firm, we stay true to
00:11:36.06\00:11:39.03
because I think
that those mechanisms,
00:11:39.06\00:11:40.76
those legal
mechanisms of separations
00:11:40.80\00:11:42.73
of church in state
00:11:42.76\00:11:44.10
but also the
recognition of religious freedom
00:11:44.13\00:11:46.43
for our individual citizens,
00:11:46.47\00:11:48.60
I think that is
what is keeping us from,
00:11:48.64\00:11:52.34
you know, when we
have these situations,
00:11:52.37\00:11:54.01
these emotional
situations of conflict
00:11:54.04\00:11:56.08
between religions
or between religion,
00:11:56.11\00:11:58.31
religious people and so I'm
incredibly grateful for those.
00:11:58.35\00:12:03.28
When the president gives
his state of the nation address,
00:12:03.32\00:12:06.69
of course there is a
positive spin on everything
00:12:06.72\00:12:09.66
and we would
think no less of him.
00:12:09.69\00:12:11.53
It needs to be as positive
and as optimistic as possible.
00:12:11.56\00:12:15.56
And of course religious liberty,
00:12:15.60\00:12:17.40
when we speak of that,
00:12:17.43\00:12:18.77
we can be
positive and optimistic
00:12:18.80\00:12:20.70
that in the United
States particularly,
00:12:20.74\00:12:23.10
religious freedom
is still guaranteed,
00:12:23.14\00:12:25.61
no matter what
social dislocations
00:12:25.64\00:12:27.91
or local prejudices may exist.
00:12:27.94\00:12:30.41
But there is another
side and I'm reminded
00:12:30.45\00:12:32.95
of what Ellen White once wrote
00:12:32.98\00:12:34.68
to the Seventh-day
Adventist membership
00:12:34.72\00:12:36.89
in their early
day, she said, you know,
00:12:36.92\00:12:39.15
if we could say it's
not as bad as it appears,
00:12:39.19\00:12:42.06
that would be okay.
00:12:42.09\00:12:43.43
But she says,
it's much, much worse
00:12:43.46\00:12:45.06
and on one level that is
so with religious liberty
00:12:45.09\00:12:48.46
in the United States,
00:12:48.50\00:12:49.83
not because we are restricted
00:12:49.86\00:12:51.70
but because the
concept of religious freedom
00:12:51.73\00:12:54.50
is rapidly changing to
one of religious entitlement
00:12:54.54\00:12:58.91
and that is being
fed by a sense of fear
00:12:58.94\00:13:02.14
at conflicts between
religious faiths globally
00:13:02.18\00:13:05.35
that are migrating
to the United States.
00:13:05.38\00:13:07.72
We must make
sure that we cherish,
00:13:07.75\00:13:11.22
proclaim and advance
religious liberty at any cost.
00:13:11.25\00:13:17.03
For liberty insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:17.06\00:13:20.86