Welcome to the Liberty insider.
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This is a
program that brings you
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up-to-date news,
views, discussion,
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and information
on religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Melissa Reed,
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Associate Director for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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in North America
for the Public Affairs
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and Religious
Liberty Department.
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Very distinct distinction
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that I often have
to explain to people.
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Religious liberty is one aspect
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but another is
presenting the church
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in a positive way
to public officials.
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Right, right, sort
of our diplomatic side.
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Yeah, yeah, there's
one way of putting it,
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yeah, the diplomats.
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We're not always diplomatic.
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But let's talk
about North America,
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the United States,
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I came
originally from Australia,
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I still look at it
with sort of fascination.
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And I know that much of
the world does because...
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Well, every country
has its unique history.
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The U.S. is not
such ancient vintage,
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and it was
established at the time of
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religious and social
casting off of the old norms.
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It was sort of an
attempted idealism.
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Yes.
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And the constitution
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which is not as followed
as it should be at level.
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But it's a wonderful document
of high principle secularism.
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But yet, in the First Amendment
protecting religious liberty.
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Respect for, absolutely.
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The president gave a State
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of the Nation
address the other day.
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And he was accused of being
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too idealistic
in ignoring reality.
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What do you think? Where are we?
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What's the state of the
nation on religious liberty?
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Right.
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Well, I really
appreciate being an American.
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I love the
freedoms that we have here,
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and I love the
Constitution as far as,
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I think of it as
a living document.
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And I like, I like the idealism.
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I like the checks and balances
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that are afforded
within the Constitution,
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you know, as far
as our government.
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I, you know
recognize there was a reaction
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to sort of the
situation and, you know,
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sort of centralized power
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that they were
coming from that, you know,
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the founders were
coming from but I love that.
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You know, within our
governing literature it's,
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it's recognized a
freedom of expression,
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a freedom of religion.
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You know, we talk about sort
of the two different clauses,
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we talk about the
establishment cost.
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You know, the government
will not establish literature.
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It's a two halves of
half of one amendment.
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Yes, yes.
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So, you know, we're
coming from somewhere
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where there was
an official church,
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you know, as part of the state.
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And then also the free
exercise there, you know of.
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You gave the loaded statement
in for the point of discussion,
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so we could
bring out some truth.
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Okay.
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You made a loaded statement
about living constitution.
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Yes.
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That's a polarizing statement
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when you talk
about the Supreme Court.
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It is.
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There are a few of the justices
that hold just that view
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and have been accused of sort of
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making it up as they go along
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which probably is a bit true,
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but what
they're trying on doing,
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and I think what you
mean by it is to apply
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the overarching principles
embodied in the Constitution
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with the present reality.
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Right. Right.
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That can mean
moving in directions
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that clearly the people living
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at the time of the signing
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couldn't have even
gotten their head around,
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they never imagined.
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Absolutely, and that's
exactly what I mean by it.
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As far as, you know,
you look at the amendments
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that have taken
place over the years.
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As a woman, I
appreciate the right to vote.
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And I'm glad that that was
an amendment that was added.
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I'm trying to
think of a good comeback.
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I may not always
appreciate the candidates
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that are offered to me,
but I appreciate their right.
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And I agree with you.
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And, you know, I've
studied the Constitution
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and I think it's
an admirable document
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but it's
certainly not an airtight,
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you know, finished product.
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It was the product of
the thinking of the times
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and some of its
glaring inconsistencies
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where the women
were not to vote.
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And of course, slaves
were treated as worse,
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they were not allowed to vote,
they were treated as chattel.
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And the Constitution itself,
if you really read it carefully
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has a very
corporate sort of stance
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because early on they
had quite a discussion
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whether or not
the voting franchise
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would even be
extended to non landowners.
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Right. That was
a property system.
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Yes.
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But that said, the overarching
principles of the enlightenment
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and of even some
religious thinkers on,
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on conscience
issues are incorporated.
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Yeah.
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And, of course, where
we goes the amendments,
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but they were not in
the original document,
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but they were included as
a condition of the states,
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various states'
acceptance of the document.
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Right.
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And really our Constitution
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and our protection
of religious freedom
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has been emulated by
other countries many times over.
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Yeah, sure,
Australia, very consciously.
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When they got
their independence,
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1901 was when
Australia had federation.
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I mean they pretty much just
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did a high school
trick and copied it across.
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Yes, yes, the cut and
paste on the computer.
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Yeah, that was
before the computers,
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that's a computer era,
you know, 1980s to 2000.
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But, you know, as
I, as I said, you know,
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while I do believe, you
know, that you can't anticipate,
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you know, times
and changes in society
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and things like that.
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And again, you know,
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the Constitution
is not divine read.
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It's not the Bible,
it's not holy scripture.
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And I've said
that many times, yeah.
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Right, and so, you know,
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I appreciate
that there have been
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amendments along the way.
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But I do really feel like,
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they got it right as
far as religious freedom.
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You know, like certainly
with our magazine, we see,
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you know, that we standout both
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for that free
exercise of religion
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but also that
separation of church and state
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that there is no
establishment of religion.
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Yeah.
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You know, I like
the whole history
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not just from 1776 on.
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But there were, there
were battles being fought
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in England itself
over religious freedom.
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And I think it's just a quirk
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of the politicians
in power at the time,
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not even to dismiss the English
king that they mishandled,
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didn't think separated as
they would have eventually.
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But you can easily see
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a parallel view of the
thinking people at the time.
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And remember the French
Revolution followed shortly
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after the American Revolution.
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And people saw pernicious role
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that religion had
played in frustrating France
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so much that they rebelled
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and kicked out not just the king
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but there was an
anticlerical reaction.
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And so America, United States
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was ahead of the
curve I think in,
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in a positive
way in incorporating
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this new secular thinking.
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And because there were
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so many people of
faith in the colonies,
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they wanted to protect faith
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but not let it
have the high hand
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that they had in the old world.
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So, I know it's a
pretty good model.
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Right. But
where is it doing now?
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We're talking
theoretical now. Yeah, yeah.
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Well, where is it doing
now it's interesting, yeah.
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You know right now, as we're
talking we're in the middle.
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As it seems like we
have been for years,
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we're in the middle
of a presidential cycle.
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Well, the things have changed
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since I first came
as a teenager to the US.
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The whole
process used to be very,
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just a few months
away from the election.
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Now, it starts
when someone's elected,
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they start campaigning
and or their party starts
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doing things with the
mind of the next election.
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Yes, yes.
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And, and you know,
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religious liberty
or religious freedom
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have been on the lips
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and on the minds of
individuals on our, you know,
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news television programs
for a couple of years now.
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It almost seems like
with the presidential election
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that there is as
the Constitution says,
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there should not be a
religious test for office.
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You know, it seems based
on the party that nomination
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that you're trying to get,
you need to check that stamp
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that you are the right religion.
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You believe in the
right way, you know,
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and it can be troubling.
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Well, I think President
Obama has done quite well,
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and I take him at his
word that he is a Christian.
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But he was elected under
the shadow of suggestions
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that he was anything but...
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I like to be honest
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and I might have to
undercut my own argument.
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Thomas Jefferson was selected
when the accusation was made
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that he was a non-Christian.
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And there were some
evidence on that with Jefferson.
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But the point I
want to make religion--
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We seem to have adhere
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to the no religious
test for public office.
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But many people have remarked
and I think it's very true,
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that if someone openly
said, they were an atheist.
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They would be under un-electable
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in the United States.
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Or probably if, they say
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they are a Muslim
in its current dynamic.
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Currently yes.
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Whether, that was
always true, I don't know.
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But there's a
social expectation,
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the person will have
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an acceptable religious
viewpoint even Mitt Romney,
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he's little on the fringes,
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I can't say that
disqualified him,
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but it caused him some trouble.
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Right.
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But I'm quite sure
from what I've seen
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and from also
opinions that I've read that
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that an openly atheist
person would not be allowed.
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I might personally be
uncomfortable with that,
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but it shouldn't be a
Constitutional problem.
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No, and certainly,
I mean I think that
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when you require something.
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You know, we talk a lot
about, you know, how, you know,
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the examples were
given by God in Christ
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and how, you know,
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we're allowed freedom of
choice and things like that.
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And I think when you
have these human requirements,
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you have a lot of
in sense their beliefs.
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Do you know what I mean like,
you're sort of forcing people,
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and I'm not saying, you know,
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people are in
their spiritual journey,
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they're in different
places at different times.
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But I think
you're requiring someone
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to profess to something that
may not actually be genuine or,
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you know, at the
same sort of level.
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And, you know, I don't know,
I don't think it's appropriate,
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I certainly appreciate.
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You know, I appreciate someone
who is a dedicated Christian
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because I know that, you know,
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their morals are
going to be this way,
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in this way, you
know, and they're motivated.
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You know, and I think a lot
of times, we talk about this,
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like can you even
separate as a religious person
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and a politician.
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You know, well, I'm not going
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to let my
religion affect the way
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that I run the
country or, or you know serve,
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serve the
plurality of individuals.
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I think that's kind of a
false requirement as well.
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You can't separate a
person's moral compass
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from their entire life behavior.
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Yeah.
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But there shouldn't
be a religious agenda,
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or a particular faith agenda.
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And, you know, he's old now
and thankfully still with us.
00:11:22.24\00:11:26.18
But Jimmy Carter, I
think exemplify that very well.
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I can remember myself
murmuring about his election
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because he was such a,
an active Southern Baptist.
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But in office, I can't say that,
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I can't really think
back and think of anything
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that he apparently did that was
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directly a consequence
of his faith identity.
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But since his presidency,
he's lived a wonderful,
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admirable public life.
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Exemplary,
humanitarian really, I mean he,
00:11:52.61\00:11:55.28
he has walked his faith really.
00:11:55.31\00:11:56.75
Yeah, and the
historians are not inclined
00:11:56.78\00:11:59.05
to give him a very high place,
00:11:59.08\00:12:00.48
but I don't think he
could be criticized as,
00:12:00.52\00:12:03.28
as misusing his
faith in office at all.
00:12:03.32\00:12:07.06
So, I'm comfortable
with that sort of a thing.
00:12:07.09\00:12:09.29
And I personally, you know
00:12:09.32\00:12:11.39
wouldn't endorse anybody
of any faith or no faith.
00:12:11.43\00:12:16.06
But if all of their views
00:12:16.10\00:12:18.90
and even a
secularist if they had,
00:12:18.93\00:12:20.74
if a secularist
was publicly stating
00:12:20.77\00:12:22.74
that I'm against religion,
00:12:22.77\00:12:24.11
I wouldn't elect
such a person because,
00:12:24.14\00:12:26.37
they might tilt against
the First Amendment or...
00:12:26.41\00:12:28.61
Right. Or things like that.
00:12:28.64\00:12:29.98
So, do you think, do you see
secularism as sort of the real?
00:12:30.01\00:12:34.85
No.
00:12:34.88\00:12:37.45
You knew where
I was going. Yeah.
00:12:37.49\00:12:39.09
Let's, let's take
a break and come back
00:12:39.12\00:12:41.36
and continue this
interesting discussion
00:12:41.39\00:12:43.26
on a provocative point.
00:12:43.29\00:12:44.66