Welcome back to the discussion.
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We were solving
the world's problem,
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particularly as it
relates to religion.
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And goodness knows
the world as, you know,
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I'm not God in space
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but from space
this must look like...
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A mess?
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A mess, and you know,
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and there's
prayers, and crosses,
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and Quranic exaltations
all of the religious garble
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coming up must be not mystifying
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but attention getting
for the God in heaven.
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And how do we solve
it because, you know,
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religion is needed.
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Faith is needed,
because I'm giving my answer,
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I make a distinction between
religion and spirituality.
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But you know, we got too
much religion and it's violent.
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Not always, but
the violent elements
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seems to be coming to the fore.
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Yeah, well, I mean, I think you,
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I think you answered
it within the question
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as far as you know, focusing
on our individual faith in God,
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in our individual
relationships with God
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and rather than a
religion or a doct, you know,
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sort of doctrine and allegiance
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to a human made
sort of organization.
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Particularly, I
mean we all think
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that our faith
and our belief system
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is the correct one.
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But you know, so many of
these faith systems, you know,
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they seem
inconsistent with, you know,
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a God of love in some of
the practices that we see.
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And you know whether that's
incorrect interpretations,
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or you know,
that it's, you know,
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a power hungry individual
who has sort of, you know,
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created these or whatever but
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it's just you know some of
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the activities
and beliefs, you know,
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that inspire them
is just so troubling.
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Let me take another tech.
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I think part of what's
not causing the problem
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but exacerbating the problem
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is dishonesty in
religious dialogue.
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I know Christians, and
Christianity is not in a--
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I mean it's not a
violent religion inherently,
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but in the Middle Ages,
under the medieval church,
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it had very violent tendencies.
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Christianity at
the moment is not.
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But I think to
protect itself, it doesn't,
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it's sort of backing off.
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And thus it's not aggressive
about any faith proclamation.
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Whereas Islam at
the moment is in the,
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not necessarily the ascendancy,
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but it's an
ascendant aggressive stage.
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But Christians and others
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are not willing to
call it for what it is.
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Even the
president continuing to say,
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"Islam is a religion of peace."
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It doesn't even mean
peace, it means submission.
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And, Islam has with a vengeance
what even Christianity has,
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the idea that
everybody should be a Muslim.
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Their goal is total
worldwide conversion.
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And until that's accomplished,
persuasion is good,
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violence might be necessary.
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Well, you know, not all,
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by any means of adherence
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of any religion would
be inclined to be violent.
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But if it's inherent in you,
in your faith, talk about it.
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Don't dodge it.
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You know, even as
people are being bombed
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and destroyed around
the world and we say,
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"This is not the religion."
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It's sort of like the
argument with the-- Now,
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I'll get into
trouble with our viewers the,
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the gun argument.
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You know, guns
don't kill people.
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People kill people.
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Right. Yes.
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Well, you can say, "No,
Islam never hurt anybody.
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But this person, well
I say, they're Islamic,
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they did this."
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Not really Islam.
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After a while, it's
the elephant in the room,
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of course, it's Islam.
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Right.
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And I've already
said in other programs,
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I'm committed
to protecting Islam
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or heaven's gate for
that matter to exist.
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When they harm other
people, that's a question,
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but people can
believe what they want.
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That's religious freedom. Right.
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But I don't think it
furthers religious freedom
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to deny aspects
of a given faith.
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We need to really
discuss them openly.
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And I agree with you too with
what you were saying as far as.
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We need to be upfront
about our own belief system.
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And maybe even proud
of our own belief system,
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and rather than sort of
white washing it, so that it's,
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you know, we all
have this universal faith,
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or belief in this
higher power and they're not...
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Right and that's
where we are going,
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I believe that there's going
to be an attempt with globalism
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to morph globalism with
a safe religious center.
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It could be a
coalition of religious beliefs
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that have muted
their distinctive aspects,
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sort of a defense compact.
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Yeah.
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And they will
easily turn on the others
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that are not in there.
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Right.
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No, you know, I think that,
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that our faith
has been inspired,
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you know, we
have inspired works,
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we have the Bible, we have
so many different things that,
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that show us very,
you know, purposeful,
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distinctive ways
to live our life and,
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and I think that we
should be proud of that,
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and we should stand,
you know, behind them.
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And, yes. Not, not.
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I mean religion
shouldn't be radically different
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from all human interchange.
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I mean you don't, you
don't come up to someone
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and tell all the truths
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about your observation
of them right upfront.
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You get to know them,
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and then if you want to
persuade them of something,
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you suggest it carefully.
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You know, with the
dynamic, religion is the same.
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Of course, religion
can have a clear agenda,
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but you don't hit people
between the eyes with it.
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But in this larger dialogue,
we need to be upfront about
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what we really believe,
what our agenda is even if,
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you know, that the
other group may not accept it.
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But they should accept
that you hold that view.
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Right.
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That's sort of what's missing.
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Yes. And, and...
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And that you're
allowed to hold that view.
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Right.
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You know, when we
talked about before, you know,
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immigration issues,
and you know, we've,
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we've heard individuals
running for president talk
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about excluding
individuals from immigrating
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because of their particular,
you know, belief system.
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I mean, I'd like to think
that if that nameless individual
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were elected in the real world,
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it probably would
translate into something close
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to what we already have,
where there's certain watch,
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watch list countries,
and anybody from that area
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might have deeper scrutiny.
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I mean the U.S., I've
been through the system,
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the U.S. doesn't just, has
never had a total open door.
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Right. Never has.
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And there's
quite, isn't there quite
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a comprehensive process now
for individuals who immigrate.
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There's always a
checking process.
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Paranoia is driving,
if not his statement,
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the reaction to it.
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And it doesn't bode
well for religion generally,
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if you can just sort of
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box someone and categorize them.
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@You know, I might
have strong views on Islam,
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but by no means do I
think that every Muslim will act
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on those, sort of worst
tendencies of their faith,
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and I hope they
have the same for me.
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Right, right.
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And we're
certainly not suggesting
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that anyone's civil
liberties should be removed
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because of their, you
know, the way that they believe
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they're religious,
you know, how they are.
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No, but the way they
act, yes. Absolutely.
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And, and I don't
even have a challenge.
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If...
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Let's just call
the country Oceana.
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If I am a citizen of
Oceana and they make it illegal
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to, to witness to my
faith to my neighbor,
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I don't have a problem
with how I act with that.
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I will disobey the
law and take the penalty.
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There's a penalty for it.
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Right, I think I
like that point, go ahead.
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And, and there's many people
living in the United States,
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where they make an
assumption that automatically
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the law is going to guarantee
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everything they
do with their faith
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just because it's
guarantee religious liberty.
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Well, that's a
fortuitous situation.
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But you don't act in the
way you do as a person of faith
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because the law
allows or disallows it.
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You do because you're
motivated by your conscience.
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I like that point a lot.
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But you should understand,
you cross the civil law,
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then you're
going to pay a penalty.
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Right, I agree with that.
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You know, we've had
conversations on here before
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about, you know,
with the discrimination
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in the workplace
in the United States,
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and talked about, you know,
individuals are standing up
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for their conscience.
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They know the
situation in that workplace,
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they know that they
will likely, you know,
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they hope that
there will be one outcome
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that they'll be accommodated.
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But they know that
there is the possibility
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that they will
lose their job for God.
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Even though as
we're currently standing,
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the law is on their side that,
you know, that's just the way.
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Now, this is a
little bit of the obvious
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of what I was explaining.
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This is where
the law supports you.
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Yes. But there's
a social penalty.
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There's a social penalty.
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And this is
their irony in America
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that needs to be spoken aloud.
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There's a lot of lip
service to the First Amendment.
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And then its
application in the workplace
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through Title VII of the
civil rights legislation.
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But there is a
huge amount of prejudice
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by employers
and fellow employees
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that gets in the
way all the time.
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It's not prejudice
against religious liberty.
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It's prejudice
against your particular
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form of religious expression.
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Right, right.
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There is often well,
why can't you just do this
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or why can't you do that or
this person is into that and...
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But to the broader
question as far as, you know,
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I absolutely agree with you
that people should recognize
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there are
consequences to, you know,
00:09:25.66\00:09:28.56
being a person of faith
and we certainly, you know,
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don't think that there
should be unfair consequences,
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but if you are in a
situation where, you know,
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X is not allowable but
your conscience, you know,
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requires you to do
it then, you know...
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Follow your conscience.
Follow your conscience.
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I have seen too
many cases of people
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that have had a
problem and they've given in.
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And then, you know,
it's between them and God
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in the end.
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But I've hit this
table, well, you know,
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they wouldn't let me,
or they wouldn't allow me.
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That's not really an excuse,
00:10:01.16\00:10:04.83
and we're happy to use the Lord
00:10:04.87\00:10:06.50
to help someone who
follows their conviction.
00:10:06.53\00:10:09.64
But you have to
follow your conviction.
00:10:09.67\00:10:11.57
What does Shakespeare say,
00:10:11.61\00:10:12.94
"To thine own
self, self be true."
00:10:12.97\00:10:14.78
Right.
00:10:14.81\00:10:16.14
Well, and the thing is to us
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as we have seen
over and over again.
00:10:17.55\00:10:19.55
Following your
conviction will lead you
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to a closer
relationship with God.
00:10:21.68\00:10:23.95
It's going to be a witness
to individuals around you,
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whether it's your
friends, or your family,
00:10:27.42\00:10:28.92
or your
colleagues, or your countrymen.
00:10:28.96\00:10:31.76
You know, it's, it's,
it's not an easy thing to do.
00:10:31.79\00:10:34.70
You know, we're
saying it sort of just like,
00:10:34.73\00:10:36.23
well, of course, this
is the way you should do.
00:10:36.26\00:10:37.83
There will be consequences
and they will be, you know,
00:10:37.87\00:10:41.04
likely they will be unpleasant
whether it's you know,
00:10:41.07\00:10:43.24
losing your
employment, or your citizenship,
00:10:43.27\00:10:45.94
or something you know.
00:10:45.97\00:10:47.31
Well, sometimes
they are pleasant too.
00:10:47.34\00:10:48.68
Of course.
00:10:48.71\00:10:50.05
But you don't go to--
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The point is,
Christianity I understand,
00:10:51.45\00:10:53.11
but it seems to me any
faith, you don't go into it
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because it's going to
be pleasant or unpleasant,
00:10:55.78\00:10:57.72
you go to it under conviction.
00:10:57.75\00:10:59.25
You don't go for the prizes.
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And let the chips
fall where they may.
00:11:00.66\00:11:03.22
And then you praise God,
Allah, whoever dear to you,
00:11:03.26\00:11:08.66
you are inclined
to, but you praise them
00:11:08.70\00:11:10.67
that it turns out so well.
00:11:10.70\00:11:12.03
Right, and we
know that, you know,
00:11:12.07\00:11:14.20
that there is ultimately
a wonderful, you know,
00:11:14.24\00:11:18.54
price sort of waiting
for us at the end of time
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as far as, you know,
a life in heaven with,
00:11:21.11\00:11:23.21
with Christ and
His believers in.
00:11:23.24\00:11:25.18
And so, we know that
to be true but, you know,
00:11:25.21\00:11:28.15
just as we're going along here,
00:11:28.18\00:11:30.09
and looking at
the world around us
00:11:30.12\00:11:33.49
really, it's just such a dire
situation, and unfortunately,
00:11:33.52\00:11:37.66
it's because of a lot of times
00:11:37.69\00:11:39.63
the situations
that are occurring
00:11:39.66\00:11:41.00
are religiously motivated.
00:11:41.03\00:11:42.36
Whether it's conflict
between the own religion,
00:11:42.40\00:11:44.67
or, you know,
with other religions.
00:11:44.70\00:11:47.10
And so, I'm just
really so grateful
00:11:47.14\00:11:49.84
when we take the
time and the opportunity
00:11:49.87\00:11:52.57
to look to
Christ as our ultimate,
00:11:52.61\00:11:57.05
you know, situation
of how to behave and...
00:11:57.08\00:12:03.18
How to, you know what to emulate
00:12:03.22\00:12:05.09
as far as how we deal
with our relationships
00:12:05.12\00:12:07.06
with other people.
00:12:07.09\00:12:09.22
Just the other day in the
car, I was playing a selection
00:12:09.26\00:12:11.93
from Handel's
wonderful musical, the Messiah.
00:12:11.96\00:12:15.46
And I listened to the
one of the deeper voices
00:12:15.50\00:12:19.00
singing in "Why do the nations
so furiously rage together?"
00:12:19.03\00:12:24.31
The nations are
raging at the moment,
00:12:24.34\00:12:26.11
and one of the
reasons for that rage,
00:12:26.14\00:12:28.88
one of the
expressions of that rage
00:12:28.91\00:12:30.95
is religious intolerance,
religious difference.
00:12:30.98\00:12:34.38
And indeed, a murderous
religious aggression at times.
00:12:34.42\00:12:39.92
We need to be aware of this
and fight it on every level.
00:12:39.95\00:12:44.13
Not with swords loud clashing,
00:12:44.16\00:12:46.29
but with deeds
of love and mercy,
00:12:46.33\00:12:48.66
with an exemplification
of what true religion is,
00:12:48.70\00:12:53.13
whether it's Buddhism,
Hinduism, Islam, Christianity,
00:12:53.17\00:12:57.74
they are very disparate
in the way that they approach
00:12:57.77\00:13:00.81
different gods.
00:13:00.84\00:13:02.18
But the way that
they practice their faith
00:13:02.21\00:13:04.41
should be dignified
by a common humanity.
00:13:04.45\00:13:08.95
For Liberty insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:08.98\00:13:11.99