Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
00:00:22.75\00:00:24.82
This is a program
that's designed to bring you
00:00:24.85\00:00:26.92
discussion,
updates, news, views,
00:00:26.96\00:00:30.59
and all around
information on religious liberty
00:00:30.63\00:00:34.73
an important topic
00:00:34.76\00:00:36.10
and we will discuss
it from a world view
00:00:36.13\00:00:38.27
and from North American view.
00:00:38.30\00:00:39.70
My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:39.73\00:00:42.70
And my guest on the
program Paul Anderson,
00:00:42.74\00:00:46.31
a chaplain and head
of the chaplaincy program
00:00:46.34\00:00:49.21
for the North American Division
00:00:49.24\00:00:50.58
of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:00:50.61\00:00:51.95
and a man of great
experience including
00:00:51.98\00:00:54.02
commander in
chaplaincy in the military.
00:00:54.05\00:00:56.72
Thank you.
00:00:56.75\00:00:58.09
I want to discuss terms,
00:00:58.12\00:01:01.02
you invoked George
Orwell in another program.
00:01:01.06\00:01:04.99
I seem to remember
George Orwell did a lot about
00:01:05.03\00:01:07.00
how what language in
his novel particularly 1984
00:01:07.03\00:01:11.83
was used to sort
of subvert reality.
00:01:11.87\00:01:14.40
In fact, say the opposite
and I believe that, you know,
00:01:14.44\00:01:17.87
we've been long in
that sort of dynamic
00:01:17.91\00:01:20.34
in our society.
00:01:20.38\00:01:21.71
Even in the military, you know,
00:01:21.74\00:01:23.41
it was one of the
missiles the Peacemaker.
00:01:23.45\00:01:27.82
Curiously.
00:01:27.85\00:01:29.35
I guess the peace
of the dead is peace.
00:01:29.38\00:01:31.52
But it's more than that.
00:01:31.55\00:01:33.62
I mean, that's
sort of a cheap shot.
00:01:33.66\00:01:35.82
But where it troubles me
00:01:35.86\00:01:38.49
is in terms relating to religion
00:01:38.53\00:01:41.26
and I can remember as a kid
00:01:41.30\00:01:43.87
to be called a fundamentalist
wasn't the bad thing.
00:01:43.90\00:01:46.97
It was sort of the southern
Baptist sort of religion
00:01:47.00\00:01:50.91
someone that that's
pretty, pretty sure their faith
00:01:50.94\00:01:54.74
and they took the Bible as red
00:01:54.78\00:01:57.31
and it was pretty non negotiable
00:01:57.35\00:02:00.18
but they were reasonable person.
00:02:00.22\00:02:03.12
But when I say fundamentalists
what do you think now?
00:02:03.15\00:02:07.42
Well, I think that back, I
think that term harkens back
00:02:07.46\00:02:11.23
to the southern
Baptist in the mid,
00:02:11.26\00:02:16.73
in the '60s I believe
it was where they were
00:02:16.77\00:02:20.24
trying to determine
orthodoxy and decided okay,
00:02:20.27\00:02:24.27
these are the fundamental things
00:02:24.31\00:02:26.17
that define who we are.
00:02:26.21\00:02:29.64
As Seventh-day
Adventist we've got 28,
00:02:29.68\00:02:33.45
that a lot of fundamentals.
00:02:33.48\00:02:35.75
But we know they
are meant to the degree
00:02:35.78\00:02:38.82
that we are congruent with them
00:02:38.85\00:02:41.29
and the scribe
wholeheartedly to them.
00:02:41.32\00:02:43.83
We be fundamentalist.
00:02:43.86\00:02:46.36
Right.
00:02:46.39\00:02:47.73
But if you read
a daily newspaper
00:02:47.76\00:02:49.93
fundamentalist is--
00:02:49.96\00:02:51.60
I mean, there's just no upside
00:02:51.63\00:02:52.97
to that term
nowadays that I can see.
00:02:53.00\00:02:55.07
Yeah, I think
it's become pejorative
00:02:55.10\00:02:57.87
because perhaps
the fundamentalists
00:02:57.91\00:03:01.94
were less loving
in their assertion
00:03:01.98\00:03:07.62
that this is the
way to go walk in it.
00:03:07.65\00:03:10.15
Yeah. Yeah.
00:03:10.19\00:03:11.52
I mean, there's
no question on that
00:03:11.55\00:03:13.76
where the fix is really
in as we're dealing with
00:03:13.79\00:03:17.36
so called
fundamentalist of Islam
00:03:17.39\00:03:21.90
that have taken to
some terrorist acts
00:03:21.93\00:03:24.00
and, you know,
00:03:24.03\00:03:25.37
that's a big
another big discussion
00:03:25.40\00:03:26.74
of how truly they
represent their faith and so on.
00:03:26.77\00:03:30.24
But we all agree
even the Islamic world
00:03:30.27\00:03:34.08
in relating to the west
00:03:34.11\00:03:35.44
that these
fundamentalists are dangerous.
00:03:35.48\00:03:37.51
So that term has become
totally pejorative, isn't it?
00:03:37.55\00:03:41.08
So how when we are talking about
00:03:41.12\00:03:43.55
our personal faith,
00:03:43.59\00:03:45.19
the Seventh-day
Adventist Christians
00:03:45.22\00:03:46.55
or indeed any other,
00:03:46.59\00:03:48.16
how can we say that, you know,
00:03:48.19\00:03:49.59
this is what I
believe, it's important to me,
00:03:49.62\00:03:52.79
I'm truly convinced of it
00:03:52.83\00:03:55.16
and you this is
the bottom line for me
00:03:55.20\00:03:57.23
and I'm gonna live it
00:03:57.27\00:03:58.60
and, you know,
don't take it from me.
00:03:58.63\00:04:01.07
You know, when I
was in the military
00:04:01.10\00:04:04.24
when an Adventist
or a Muslim or someone
00:04:04.27\00:04:08.11
in a
nontraditional faith practice
00:04:08.14\00:04:12.21
asked for a
reasonable accommodation
00:04:12.25\00:04:15.08
for to practice their faith
or for dietary accommodations.
00:04:15.12\00:04:21.02
One of the things that
was done was an assessment
00:04:21.06\00:04:24.83
of their long held
and deeply felt beliefs
00:04:24.86\00:04:29.76
so perhaps rather than
these are the fundamentals upon
00:04:29.80\00:04:34.00
which I plant my faith.
00:04:34.04\00:04:35.90
We could use a different term.
00:04:35.94\00:04:38.21
I have held these
views for a long time
00:04:38.24\00:04:43.08
and they are deeply felt.
00:04:43.11\00:04:46.25
Long held and
deeply felt beliefs.
00:04:46.28\00:04:48.25
Well, that's a very
satisfactory explanation
00:04:48.28\00:04:52.19
but a term is
sort of a shorthand way
00:04:52.22\00:04:53.56
of getting it something.
00:04:53.59\00:04:54.92
True.
00:04:54.96\00:04:56.29
So what term can
we-- I haven't found one.
00:04:56.32\00:04:59.63
But I think something
analogies in the general world
00:04:59.66\00:05:04.63
and certainly in
the political climate
00:05:04.67\00:05:06.67
that we live in
there has happened,
00:05:06.70\00:05:08.74
what happened
within our own church on--
00:05:08.77\00:05:13.58
wasn't the change in the term
00:05:13.61\00:05:14.94
but pejorative
use of a legalist.
00:05:14.98\00:05:18.31
Anybody that was trying to live
00:05:18.35\00:05:21.65
an exemplary Christian
life from a biblical ways basis
00:05:21.68\00:05:24.85
and then our church stand up
00:05:24.89\00:05:26.25
for the
distinctives of our church,
00:05:26.29\00:05:29.52
an internal dispute, they
were sort of put under a shadow
00:05:29.56\00:05:32.39
as though thereby
they were legalists
00:05:32.43\00:05:34.50
and of course a
Christian legalist thinking
00:05:34.53\00:05:36.10
that their actions saved them.
00:05:36.13\00:05:37.57
Right. That's pointless.
00:05:37.60\00:05:39.87
But it created a climate
00:05:39.90\00:05:41.24
where nobody wanted
to be called a legalist
00:05:41.27\00:05:43.67
and standing for their faith
00:05:43.71\00:05:45.17
and it became
very counterproductive.
00:05:45.21\00:05:47.24
So I see the same happening now
00:05:47.28\00:05:49.48
and it's tending to cower people
00:05:49.51\00:05:53.58
of a number of other faiths
00:05:53.62\00:05:56.15
than the radical
fundamentalist terrorist types.
00:05:56.18\00:06:00.22
They don't want to-- you know,
00:06:00.26\00:06:01.59
the guilt by
association charges are great
00:06:01.62\00:06:04.43
that they are now becoming
sort of generic in their faith.
00:06:04.46\00:06:09.93
You know, I think that goes back
00:06:09.96\00:06:11.60
to the historicity of nomianism
00:06:11.63\00:06:15.97
and antinomianism
that law, anti-law thing
00:06:16.00\00:06:20.24
and the idea
that some people want
00:06:20.28\00:06:23.21
heavy
restrictions to guide them,
00:06:23.24\00:06:25.21
others want no restrictions.
00:06:25.25\00:06:27.22
And when you come
into that clash it,
00:06:27.25\00:06:33.99
it becomes a matter
sometimes of might makes right.
00:06:34.02\00:06:37.79
Let me tell you
something and please interject
00:06:37.83\00:06:39.96
because I don't want to
just lecture to my guest
00:06:40.00\00:06:43.10
but I don't know that
I've shared on this program.
00:06:43.13\00:06:45.60
I've been worried
for a number of years
00:06:45.63\00:06:48.07
since the previous Pope Benedict
00:06:48.14\00:06:52.27
took a sermon in
Regensburg, Germany,
00:06:52.31\00:06:56.71
that fired up the
whole Muslim world.
00:06:56.75\00:06:58.58
Remember there were
riots in his first sermon.
00:06:58.61\00:07:02.68
I think
ill-advised and not warranted
00:07:02.72\00:07:04.69
but anyhow that
really wasn't his sermon,
00:07:04.72\00:07:07.52
that was just the
opening illustration.
00:07:07.56\00:07:09.16
I've read his sermon
00:07:09.19\00:07:10.66
and I'm troubled by
what he was really saying.
00:07:10.69\00:07:12.96
Because he threw out
an example of violence
00:07:12.99\00:07:15.60
in Islam of the
time that he quoted
00:07:15.63\00:07:18.23
when they were
besieging Constantinople.
00:07:18.27\00:07:21.00
And then the pope, he
just took that as granted
00:07:21.04\00:07:24.67
and it totally--
00:07:24.71\00:07:26.07
because it was only an anecdote
00:07:26.11\00:07:27.44
to set him up for his
point, anyhow it is what it is.
00:07:27.48\00:07:30.08
But then he said,
00:07:30.11\00:07:31.45
Christianity too
was once violent.
00:07:31.48\00:07:35.48
Now, I don't agree with that
00:07:35.52\00:07:36.85
because my understanding
of Christian history
00:07:36.89\00:07:40.26
is shortly after Christ's death
00:07:40.29\00:07:42.56
and until
Constantine took Christianity
00:07:42.59\00:07:45.63
under the imperial wing,
00:07:45.66\00:07:48.66
Christians were
persecuted pretty freely
00:07:48.70\00:07:51.27
and the Romans were bemused
00:07:51.30\00:07:53.54
that they seemed
gladly to go to the lions.
00:07:53.57\00:07:56.71
So they weren't violent but--
00:07:56.74\00:07:58.47
Was he
referring to the crusades?
00:07:58.51\00:08:01.11
No, I don't think so.
00:08:01.14\00:08:02.84
I think it was just
wrong because he says,
00:08:02.88\00:08:05.28
listen to what he says there.
00:08:05.31\00:08:06.65
He says,
Christians in the early days--
00:08:06.68\00:08:09.45
He might have been,
it's true they were violent.
00:08:09.48\00:08:13.76
But he said, "What took
away the violent tendency
00:08:13.79\00:08:16.83
was the adoption of
Hellenistic rationality."
00:08:16.86\00:08:21.66
So that would
precede the crusades.
00:08:21.70\00:08:23.16
That's true.
00:08:23.20\00:08:24.53
You know, what I
think he might mean
00:08:24.57\00:08:26.20
by that Hellenistic is
that this was the insertion
00:08:26.23\00:08:29.77
of a philosophical
concept from the Greeks
00:08:29.80\00:08:32.04
which I can see in
the New Testament myself.
00:08:32.07\00:08:34.28
Not necessarily the same as,
as heresy or doctrinal change.
00:08:34.31\00:08:39.81
Perhaps in the
church he is describing
00:08:39.85\00:08:41.95
that might have been true.
00:08:41.98\00:08:43.45
But what really troubled
me is what he says next.
00:08:43.49\00:08:46.86
He says, "The
reformers by their insistence
00:08:46.89\00:08:51.83
on sola scriptura
00:08:51.86\00:08:54.53
exposed the church
again to violence."
00:08:54.56\00:09:00.30
Interesting.
00:09:00.34\00:09:01.67
But fundamentalism,
the idea that the Bible
00:09:01.70\00:09:05.91
is the only thing and
you will live or die by it
00:09:05.94\00:09:08.24
and it's non-negotiable,
that's fundamentalism violent.
00:09:08.28\00:09:13.15
But the follow-through on
that was not that the believers
00:09:13.18\00:09:18.89
in sola scriptura were violent.
00:09:18.92\00:09:21.16
Violence was perpetrated
against them because of that.
00:09:21.19\00:09:24.66
What, you and I know
that, but in his logic
00:09:24.69\00:09:26.86
he set up his own
logical progression,
00:09:26.90\00:09:29.33
it's based on
syllogism basically--
00:09:29.36\00:09:32.33
They based on
the history perhaps.
00:09:32.37\00:09:33.70
Yeah.
00:09:33.74\00:09:35.07
But I thought that was not fair
00:09:35.10\00:09:37.71
and if anyone should have
been rioting in the streets
00:09:37.74\00:09:40.61
it should have been
Protestants, not Muslims.
00:09:40.64\00:09:45.15
I don't think the
intent of that speech
00:09:45.18\00:09:46.75
was to have a shot at Muslims.
00:09:46.78\00:09:48.48
It could have been a
flat-footed use of an example
00:09:48.52\00:09:51.55
which showed he
didn't understand them.
00:09:51.59\00:09:53.22
They could have
been upset about that
00:09:53.25\00:09:54.59
but he was not targeting Muslim.
00:09:54.62\00:09:55.96
True.
00:09:55.99\00:09:57.33
He was targeting
00:09:57.36\00:09:58.69
what he was trying to
portray fundamentalist
00:09:58.73\00:10:01.53
Protestants who are as dangerous
00:10:01.56\00:10:04.90
as what we are now
seeing with religious violence.
00:10:04.93\00:10:09.67
And that's kind of
an amazing statement
00:10:09.70\00:10:14.34
that you made
because it then pulls
00:10:14.38\00:10:17.45
the shroud away
from what fundamentalist
00:10:17.48\00:10:22.32
in any belief system will do
00:10:22.35\00:10:25.19
if you are so
fundamentally persuaded
00:10:25.22\00:10:30.03
that your right is ascendant
00:10:30.06\00:10:34.36
then it can dehumanize
someone who doesn't see things
00:10:34.40\00:10:40.64
the way you see it.
00:10:40.67\00:10:42.00
And once that happens--
00:10:42.04\00:10:43.37
If it's projected
aggressively you are right.
00:10:43.41\00:10:45.14
And this is what the beginning--
00:10:45.17\00:10:47.04
I haven't said
it for a long time
00:10:47.08\00:10:48.41
but it struck me as
important after 9/11.
00:10:48.44\00:10:51.85
We should be
condemned everywhere
00:10:51.88\00:10:55.58
people that are willing to kill
for their faith, to project it.
00:10:55.62\00:10:58.69
But we should be and
we should admire people
00:10:58.72\00:11:01.26
who are willing to
die for their faith.
00:11:01.29\00:11:02.96
There's a difference. True.
00:11:02.99\00:11:05.29
We don't want people who
want to die for their faith,
00:11:05.33\00:11:07.76
that's sort of sick.
00:11:07.80\00:11:11.23
Kind of the impetus to--
00:11:11.27\00:11:13.87
Like the Heaven's Gate and
so on and all those people, no.
00:11:13.90\00:11:16.44
I mean, and certainly true
00:11:16.47\00:11:19.44
Christian faith is
a life giving faith.
00:11:19.47\00:11:21.48
It's positive. It
wouldn't throw things away.
00:11:21.51\00:11:23.98
Right.
00:11:24.01\00:11:25.35
But if push comes to
shove and you are restricted,
00:11:25.38\00:11:29.48
you would remain
faithful as the Bible says,
00:11:29.52\00:11:32.12
even unto death.
00:11:32.15\00:11:33.49
But that's not the same
00:11:33.52\00:11:34.86
and it could
never be acceptable.
00:11:34.89\00:11:36.73
Don't you agree,
in religious circles,
00:11:36.76\00:11:39.03
that I use force to compel
you to believe what I believe?
00:11:39.06\00:11:42.26
That's just--
00:11:42.30\00:11:43.63
That kind of
works against the idea
00:11:43.67\00:11:47.24
that God creates individuals
as free moral agents.
00:11:47.27\00:11:50.84
Right.
00:11:50.87\00:11:52.27
Yet there is that
sense among fundamentalists
00:11:52.31\00:11:57.05
to compel especially
youngers to walk in this way
00:11:57.08\00:12:02.65
and then the
condemnation of those who don't
00:12:02.68\00:12:08.39
is a kind of violence
00:12:08.42\00:12:10.49
that that we some tension about
00:12:10.53\00:12:15.63
and if we
didn't operate that way
00:12:15.66\00:12:20.24
there would be no
reason or value to evangelism.
00:12:20.27\00:12:24.31
But we have to evangelize
00:12:24.34\00:12:26.14
because we do see
that there are some--
00:12:26.17\00:12:29.84
some things that
are ascendantly right.
00:12:29.88\00:12:32.41
Well, you know, evangelism
00:12:32.45\00:12:33.78
you are getting onto a topic
00:12:33.82\00:12:35.15
we could have a
whole program on.
00:12:35.18\00:12:37.12
Evangelism and liberty.
00:12:37.15\00:12:39.12
Well, well, proselytization.
00:12:39.15\00:12:42.72
The tendency
all around the world
00:12:42.76\00:12:45.63
and at the United
Nations in particular
00:12:45.66\00:12:47.66
is to restrict your ability
00:12:47.70\00:12:49.60
to project your
faith to other people.
00:12:49.63\00:12:52.37
More and more
there are some allowance
00:12:52.40\00:12:56.00
of religious freedom
within a certain construct
00:12:56.04\00:12:58.57
but you stay that way.
00:12:58.61\00:13:01.11
And in my view it's--
00:13:01.14\00:13:03.01
derives a little bit
from religious nationalism.
00:13:03.04\00:13:05.91
You know, you are a Russian
00:13:05.95\00:13:09.85
therefore you're
an eastern orthodox.
00:13:09.88\00:13:11.55
We need to take a break.
00:13:11.59\00:13:13.82
Let's pursue this
very interesting topic
00:13:13.86\00:13:15.62
after a short break.
00:13:15.66\00:13:16.99
So stay with us we
will be right back.
00:13:17.03\00:13:18.36