Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the program bringing
you news, views, discussion,
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up-to-date information,
all on religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this program
is Chaplain Paul Anderson.
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Welcome Paul. Thank you.
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And welcome back again
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because we've done
a few programs before.
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Well, it's an honor to
be back again with you.
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Well, it's my honor for
you to be on the program.
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And I'm
captivated by your career
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as well as your
responsibilities,
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in charge of chaplaincy
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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I want to discuss religious
liberty in a general sense
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but you bring your world
experienced to view on this.
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It strikes me that religious
liberty has been said before
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as the first freedom,
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since U.S Constitution pretty...
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not a great length but,
you know, first amendment
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and then very importantly
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in religious test
for public office,
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that the first amendment
separates church and state.
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Correct.
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Bit of an argument
about that as, you know,
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not what it says,
but what it means,
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but we know very
well from history.
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Thomas Jefferson, that
set up the model for that,
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and he did say, that
it made a separation,
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a wall of separation
between church and state.
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Right.
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But as I look at some
other models and Islam
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where we counterpoints
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with some Islamic
countries and activists.
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The Quran doesn't
allow for religious freedom
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or it doesn't--
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Well, they say it
does but it doesn't allow
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for separation of
church and state, not at all.
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I can see many signs
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that we're losing
our civil liberties
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and our religious liberty
for one reason or another.
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I think a misunderstanding
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about separation of church
and state is making it worst.
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What do you think?
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How does this
figure into this all?
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What do you see in the
many events swirling around us?
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I think some people
misunderstand the concept
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of separation of
church and state as to mean
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that there should be
no religious perspective
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or spiritual
perspective in politics.
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Or in society even.
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Or even in society where
the constitutional separation
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was to say that the state
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would not
establish a state church,
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to which all
citizens were responsible,
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so it doesn't
say that an American
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can't be spiritual or
an American politician
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can't be a
religionist of some sort,
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but it does say that the
church should not be the arbiter
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of all things political
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and that the political leaders
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should not be the
arbiter of all things spiritual.
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I've got a-- I
tend to be a contrarian,
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I'd agree with you absolutely,
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but I can think of
something interesting
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in the recent speech
of the pope to congress,
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which in my view might need
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the separation of
church and state considerably.
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Well he clearly
is a head of state.
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Right. And a head of the church.
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And so in liberty,
I say there, you know,
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he has a right to be
Catholic or to be pope
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and to hold
whatever Catholics hold,
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but this is sort of
the ultimate nemesis
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of the American system.
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You got the two
rolled up into one,
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it's the opposite of our system.
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But he made a
comment in his speech,
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I heard nobody comment on that,
but I noticed that he said,
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there is a need for
reciprocal subsidiarity.
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I read an article about that.
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Did you? How did
you interpret that?
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Well, I'm mulling over it,
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but I know where
the word comes from.
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The Roman Catholic Church
has stated that officially
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lately that the
separation of church and state,
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ironically they are the
only ones, not the only,
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but they're the only
major group pushing for it
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where the religious
right had become dismissive,
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but the Roman Catholics
have very properly said,
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"Yes, there should be
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separation of church and state."
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But they've said that the state
is subsidiary to the church.
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Well, in a certain
sense I agree with them.
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The spiritual
value is of the highest
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and we have to, you
know, obey the state,
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unless the higher
calling conflicts with that,
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but I think they mean,
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that the power of the
church which does not exercises
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separation of church and state,
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sort of sits there really
and it has the upper hand,
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that the little
troubling in itself.
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But reciprocal subsidiarity,
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I'm not really
sure what that means.
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Don't we see the same
spiritual social construct
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in place like Iran,
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where they'll elect a
president or a prime minister
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but they are
subject to the mullahs.
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Yes.
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But that's not ideal, is it?
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It works, it's their
way, it's not our way.
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It's true and, and that's
probably not an ideal thing
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but if even with that structure,
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if they allowed the citizenry
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to chose their
own religious path,
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you could still
have practically speaking
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religious freedom for
people within that system.
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And it's worth remembering
that I think the U.S system
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is well designed and
it's worked pretty well,
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but it's not the only
way that people can practice
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full religious freedom.
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True.
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But I think in many countries
and in particular the U.S
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and in particular since
9/11, we have seen an erosion
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of not just the laws
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that have to do
with religious freedom
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but more important to me,
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an erosion of the
concept of what it means what.
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Do you have the
right to be wrong?
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Do you have the
right to belong to a group
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that others find troubling
or even perhaps dangerous?
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You know that becomes an issue
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and can even within
the structure of a church,
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if a person sees,
has a contrarian view,
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or a different perspective,
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then the norm is the person
in good and regular standing.
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You're getting perilously
close to what-- You know,
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we want to represent our church
actively, get not so much,
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not show dirty linen,
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but we don't want to
undercut our own position.
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But I have said and I
believe this fervently
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to mostly Adventist groups,
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the lifestyle that we're
called toward in the Bible.
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If we live that
exemplary and aggressive--
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in an exemplary
and aggressive manner,
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we would probably
get even persecution
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within our own fellowship.
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Probably so.
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And certainly kick
back and some ostracization,
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so how do you deal with it?
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There is got to be
some balance and interplay
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between the role
of individual liberty
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and corporate responsibility
and accountability.
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You know, even since 9/11,
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I remember very
foolish and panic people
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getting up and
say, "I don't care,
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what liberties I give away.
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I don't care if the
president knows, you know,
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what I put on in my
bathroom and I brush my teeth,
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if I'm protected that's it."
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Well, you know,
very foolish statements,
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but we are bearing the fruit
of that sort of willingness.
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All sorts of oversight
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has been allowed by
the federal government,
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which makes judgments,
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and human being make
judgments on many thing
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but religion in particular,
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and it troubles
me that bureaucrats
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or somebody in authority
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might be sort of looking through
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the two-way lens
of my television,
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making judgments about
how I practice my faith.
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George Orwell was a
much more than prescient,
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he was prophetic.
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It really happens. Yes.
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I mean, I don't think
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it's worth keep
staying up at night over
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but the there is a mechanism
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if you connected the
cable, it's a two way lens.
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Yes it is.
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I have old televisions
at home for that reason,
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but I don't want to
live my life paranoid,
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but that beg the
question then of right doing
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and I guess some
people were saying you know,
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if I'm doing the right thing,
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it doesn't matter who sees
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or when they see
whatever I'm doing,
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as long as they keep me safe.
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That's true but I saw
an interview with someone
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from the
intelligence community recently,
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and he quoted people saying that
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and we all generally upbraid
on that little one as we,
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that's all we can
anyhow and that's reasonable,
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but he made a comment
that's worth thinking about
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and I'd like to connect
it to religious activity,
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because he said, just remember,
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he says, you're not the one
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that gets to determine
what's legal or illegal.
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That's true.
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So you could be
doing like Daniel,
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you could be
praying at your window,
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a very reasonable
religious activity,
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but it could be highly illegal
or construed in a very bad way
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by someone who
doesn't like your religion.
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Right, right
and but I guess the,
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the answer to that is to
know what's right and best
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and do it though heavens fall.
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Obviously all of us need
to do what's right and moral
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and serve before God.
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And if any
authority is dually author--
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You know, if it's fulfilling
its charter on the garden,
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on the heaven, it
won't find that dangerous,
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but I think
we're entering a phase,
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where there is so much oversight
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and then we spoke about
that in another program,
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the religious baggage of
this whole war and terror
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is so heavy,
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that I think more and more,
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there's the likelihood
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that wrong
judgments will be made
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about people's
religious behavior
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that could have
huge ramifications
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for civil liberties.
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I agree and
some of the oversight
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that the government is doing
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seems to violate
the sense of the right
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not to incriminate yourself.
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On the other hand,
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I was reading an
article last night
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about the raids on some
of the mosques in France,
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and the cash of weapons
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that were found
in these places..
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And I remember back
during the Iraqi War,
00:11:27.72\00:11:31.55
there was a mosque in Ramadi
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that had been essentially
made into an arsenal,
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but we, the American
military refused to attack it
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because of the value
that we place on sacred sites.
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Well, yeah, I mean,
it's a difficult thing.
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I wonder like I'd say
as Jesus said, you know,
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all that take up the
sword, die by the sword.
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And any church that becomes,
allows itself to be subverted
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into a military operation
or operation for violence,
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I think it's kind of
bear the fruit of that.
00:12:09.12\00:12:11.93
But it is good that
there was that respect.
00:12:11.96\00:12:14.46
Yeah, we executed
that level of respect.
00:12:14.50\00:12:19.67
They used that as
a weakness it seems,
00:12:19.70\00:12:24.57
but I think in the
balance or overtime
00:12:24.61\00:12:29.21
the balance was made clear.
00:12:29.24\00:12:31.35
But, you know, I'll go
back to really seminal event,
00:12:31.38\00:12:35.58
the Davidian
stand of in Waco, Texas,
00:12:35.62\00:12:41.96
the Davidians are an
interesting offshoot group,
00:12:41.99\00:12:44.73
very small, I doubt there's
more than tens of them left
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and never more
than a few hundred,
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at most a couple
of thousand worldwide,
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but Adventists have
some knowledge about them
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because many decades ago
they spun off from people
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who were Seventh-day Adventists
00:13:00.81\00:13:02.14
and developed to
their vanishing points,
00:13:02.18\00:13:04.61
certain apocalyptic prophecies
00:13:04.65\00:13:07.15
and Old Testament
exclusionary views.
00:13:07.18\00:13:11.62
But, you know, when I
saw that confrontation
00:13:11.65\00:13:14.86
that developed
inexorably there in Texas,
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and resulted in
many people dying,
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I thinks it's 1890.
00:13:21.70\00:13:23.63
People, many of
them young people,
00:13:23.67\00:13:25.87
all of them ex
Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:25.90\00:13:28.14
or the children of Adventist
I thought that, you know,
00:13:28.17\00:13:32.47
it really became a
self-fulfilling tragedy,
00:13:32.51\00:13:35.84
that was fueled by many things,
00:13:35.88\00:13:37.68
but I think
primarily misinformation,
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misunderstanding of
their religious views
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just because they're doctrinally
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different from our church
00:13:45.19\00:13:46.65
didn't make them
deserving of death.
00:13:46.69\00:13:48.62
In that fashion.
00:13:48.66\00:13:49.99
No, so what really
happened among other things
00:13:50.03\00:13:55.80
as I think some of their
ideas were extrapolated so huge
00:13:55.83\00:14:00.64
that they became
offensive and even threatening
00:14:00.67\00:14:03.74
to the larger population.
00:14:03.77\00:14:05.81
And I thought many times
how easily that could be done
00:14:05.84\00:14:09.28
in any religious group.
00:14:09.31\00:14:11.88
I think what fascinated
the world about that event
00:14:11.91\00:14:15.48
and subsequent more recent ones
00:14:15.52\00:14:18.12
was the rapidity
and rapacious nature
00:14:18.15\00:14:23.66
of a militarized police force.
00:14:23.69\00:14:28.26
And we were talking
about the erosion of liberty
00:14:28.30\00:14:32.40
and I think we
are beginning to see
00:14:32.43\00:14:34.80
how some of our eschatology
00:14:34.84\00:14:37.84
is being previewed by the
00:14:37.87\00:14:44.15
in...
00:14:44.18\00:14:45.85
What's a good word,
00:14:45.88\00:14:47.22
intense capacity
of law enforcement
00:14:47.25\00:14:50.69
to enforce
perspective not always law.
00:14:50.72\00:14:55.52
Yeah, you're right.
00:14:55.56\00:14:56.99
You know, there are good
and bad people in any country
00:14:57.03\00:15:00.86
and in any society,
00:15:00.90\00:15:02.36
and all people with
good intention, bad intention
00:15:02.40\00:15:04.83
but so much of what
we're living through,
00:15:04.87\00:15:06.70
I think there's a
cause and the effect
00:15:06.74\00:15:09.40
is felt by different people,
00:15:09.44\00:15:10.77
and they don't
realize they are responding
00:15:10.81\00:15:12.14
to something that they didn't
set in emotion and you have,
00:15:12.17\00:15:16.51
can have a policeman,
00:15:16.54\00:15:18.91
he has got a view that
was sort of presented to him
00:15:18.95\00:15:22.72
but it's not necessarily right
00:15:22.75\00:15:24.62
and he's gonna act a certain way
00:15:24.65\00:15:26.09
that could result in
someone being deprived
00:15:26.12\00:15:30.13
in essence of the
benefit of the law.
00:15:30.16\00:15:34.00
They will be perceived
just because of their--
00:15:34.03\00:15:38.43
You know, in the past,
00:15:38.47\00:15:39.80
there was plenty in this country
00:15:39.83\00:15:41.17
and because of your
race, certain things kick in
00:15:41.20\00:15:42.54
but it could just as easily
be and I think it's getting,
00:15:42.57\00:15:44.87
well, I'm of an era,
00:15:44.91\00:15:46.71
when if you had long
hair and dress a certain way,
00:15:46.74\00:15:49.64
the police were down
on the hippies movement.
00:15:49.68\00:15:51.88
Yeah, we don't have
that problem now though.
00:15:51.91\00:15:53.95
Not you and I.
00:15:53.98\00:15:57.55
No, but I think we are
rapidly heading toward the point
00:15:57.59\00:16:02.06
where just to call
someone a fundamentalist,
00:16:02.09\00:16:04.59
everything kicks in.
00:16:04.63\00:16:06.63
Or to disagree with
someone's reasonable belief
00:16:06.66\00:16:13.03
on how they want
to live their life.
00:16:13.07\00:16:16.27
It can be a resistant
00:16:16.30\00:16:19.57
to someone's choice of lifestyle
00:16:19.61\00:16:22.14
might be
perceived as hate speech.
00:16:22.18\00:16:25.25
Yeah, I agree,
that's a very serious point.
00:16:25.28\00:16:27.92
Think about that for a
minute while we take a break
00:16:27.95\00:16:29.52
and then come back
00:16:29.55\00:16:30.89
while we
continue this discussion.
00:16:30.92\00:16:32.25