Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Paul Anderson
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000311A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program bringing you 00:25 news, views, discussion, analysis, 00:28 up-to-date information on religious liberty events 00:32 in the United States and around the world. 00:34 My guest on the program is Commander Paul Anderson. 00:39 Retired, but working for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 00:41 in charge of the chaplaincy program. 00:43 But you were a military chaplain 00:44 for many years, 00:46 traveled the world on Uncle Sam's power. 00:50 I joined the Navy because they said back 00:53 when I was a young guy 00:54 "Join the Navy, see the world." 00:56 It's not just a job. It's an adventure. 00:58 So did you see the world 00:59 or did you see the inside of a lot of ships. 01:01 I've seen a lot of the world and truly most of it is water. 01:04 Yes, that's true. 01:07 Let's talk about something 01:08 that I think you've got a good background 01:11 to bring to the discussion of this. 01:13 Years ago, I think I told you privately, 01:16 I went to a discussion down at the University of Virginia. 01:19 There were several presenters 01:20 but one of them was Samuel Huntington, 01:23 who since died but he had done a provocative study 01:26 on the clash of civilizations. 01:30 And he prefigured in a way what we're now living through 01:33 since 9/11 with the rise of radical Islam 01:38 and extremism to use the politically correct. 01:42 But in many regards, what I see it is 01:45 as a continuation of some longstanding literal wars 01:50 between religious forces 01:51 of great groups of people just clashing in 01:54 and different battles and wars 01:56 but behind it all the different way of looking 01:59 at the spiritual realities. 02:01 Does it strike you that this is-- 02:03 that we're living through this 02:04 and it's not as simple as just since the last shooting, 02:07 you know, find the sign of radicalism or whatever? 02:10 Is there a bigger thing going on? 02:12 I think there is. 02:14 I had the privilege of seeing Sam Huntington once as well. 02:20 And the term he coined West taxification stays in my-- 02:24 the lexicon of my vocabulary. 02:27 And what we're seeing now is probably, 02:33 tremendous backlash to the western influences 02:38 that have moved around the world. 02:42 But what we're seeing now I think is 02:47 the outplaying of long, 02:49 historic challenges 02:53 between cultures and clans. 02:57 And in their irresolution, 03:01 these things are beginning to happen 03:04 and there was a time when travel was very difficult. 03:08 Now you can be almost anywhere in the world in 24 hours. 03:12 So the things that used to be limited to a province 03:16 or a mountain range can now cross oceans. 03:19 Yeah, things feed on themselves now, 03:21 where in the past they would dissipate. 03:23 Right. Something. 03:24 In fact, Thoreau mockingly said in is Walden he says, 03:31 hey, you know, what does American need to-- 03:32 "What is the big flapping ear of America need 03:34 to hear about what happens in England?" 03:36 Because he was taken by the idea of the Telegraph. 03:40 That was a novelty there 03:41 other was it would take three weeks 03:43 or three month for a ship to come across 03:45 not very news either. 03:47 And now with cell phone cameras, 03:49 you can record something in Paris 03:51 and see it in New York in seconds. 03:53 But and I'll even go further. 03:56 I studied, English was my major 03:59 and I remember I took linguistics twice. 04:03 It was a problem for me both times, 04:05 well, the history of the language and so on. 04:09 I did it in college and thought that I was free of it 04:11 and then when I was in university, 04:13 the same course came up again with the same teacher. 04:17 But I came to the conclusion that first of all, 04:20 we can't have truly rational 04:23 what we think of us human thought without language. 04:25 We have the brain power for it but its language. 04:27 That communicates it. 04:29 And different people have different languages 04:31 and a language determines 04:32 the way their brain processes reality. 04:36 But on that, I believe your concept 04:38 as a transcendent of God 04:40 and the spiritual things, that's part of your language. 04:44 And this is not just doctrinal differences 04:47 between religions and cultures. 04:49 I think there's even a reality perception difference. 04:53 I think you're right. 04:54 And that's cultural-- 04:57 culturally influenced 04:59 and then seasoned by personal experience. 05:02 And at some point it's got to be communicated 05:06 but when you're using a-- 05:09 the limited perspective of a human 05:12 to describe transcendence, language often fails. 05:16 Yeah. 05:17 I thought about this last night, staying at 3ABN, 05:20 I turned on the TV and another network 05:24 that I will not mention on camera. 05:26 But they were-- they had a calling program on Islam. 05:32 And I thought some of it was a bit pejorative 05:35 because they quoted a lot of text that try to deny 05:38 that Allah of the Quran is God of the Bible. 05:45 And I thought it was unfortunate 05:47 because on the surface, 05:49 this is supposed to be the same God. 05:51 And I remember going to Indonesia, 05:54 there our Adventist Church singing from the hymn book 05:56 and I didn't understand their language but I noticed 05:59 wherever it was God, they would sing Allah. 06:02 So clearly, I mean, it's an interchangeable term 06:05 but it doesn't mean because the terms are interchangeable, 06:08 Allah means the same thing 06:09 in that person's mind as God does to ours. 06:12 Right. 06:14 And so that, you know, again another illustration, 06:16 I don't think we're talking at cross purposes even 06:20 when we try to communicate with these religions. 06:23 Then you put the burden of history, and of imperialism, 06:25 and of World Wars I and II, 06:28 and the fall of nations and so on 06:31 and the residual hatred, even of the Crusades. 06:36 God help us, how we ever gonna communicate 06:39 when the spiritual realities are dividing us. 06:41 Yeah. 06:43 History certainly influences 06:46 current perspectives and yeah, and linguistics. 06:51 In the United States, you have regional variations on-- 06:56 on terms. 06:58 Pop soda, Soda pop, same thing 07:01 what do you call a Coke? 07:04 And we call it different things. 07:06 But we mean the same thing 07:09 but you may not know that if you weren't raised 07:12 where that term is used. 07:14 I'll tell you the classic, well, it just came to mind. 07:16 I remember being very the news reading years ago 07:19 and it might be a Chinese person listening. 07:21 He could really call me on this but I read this that 07:24 when Coca-Cola went to China to enter into that market, 07:29 they had to get a translation of the word Coca-Cola. 07:32 And I don't even quite know what it means in English. 07:33 I mean, I know the Coke reference 07:38 which we've forgotten. 07:40 But anyhow, what it really means. 07:41 But supposedly, the word they chose 07:45 by some marketing person actually, literally, meant, 07:49 "Bite the wax tadpole." 07:52 Wow. 07:53 That doesn't sound very appetizing. 07:55 So you know, one can get lost in the translation 07:58 and that's just with language, 08:00 as a language but when you have-- 08:03 using language to communicate spiritual differences 08:06 and how you look at God, Allah, God 08:09 and all the religious imperatives. 08:12 I'm not saying it's hopeless but I just do believe 08:14 that this is a big part of the-- 08:17 what was a real religious cultural clash 08:21 that sits behind the war and terror. 08:25 Yeah, I think that it is a good idea 08:27 for contemporary religionists 08:30 to be informed beyond their own tomb. 08:36 As Christians, I have multiple Bibles in my home 08:40 and in my office and I'm fairly familiar with those 66 books 08:44 and our perspective on that. 08:47 But I understand the perspective of someone 08:50 who may not be of my denomination. 08:53 But I have also picked up a Quran 08:56 and read much of one of them-- 08:58 it was a gift and I figured out, 09:00 honor the gift by reading it. 09:03 It informed my ability to dialogue with Muslims 09:06 that I met subsequently in life. 09:09 Yeah, and I think we need to. 09:10 I agree with it. 09:14 I was faced with a moral dilemma recently. 09:16 I've read the Quran and I have it at home. 09:17 But I was faced with the moral dilemma 09:19 recently in Turkey. 09:21 They had their version of the Gideon Bible in the hotel. 09:25 And I thought long and hard, 09:28 should I take that version 'cause I wanted it. 09:32 And I'm not sure, is the Gideon Bible 09:33 meant to be taken? 09:35 Well, you know, they certainly are gifts given 09:38 by the Gideon's in the hotel, 09:40 but I'm sure the hotel proprietary. 09:42 Well, it was placed by an Islamic society. 09:44 It was the equivalent to the Gideon Bible. 09:47 And it was-- was very interesting. 09:49 It was color coded which actually 09:52 had the effect the-- of sort of a color wheels 09:54 but in front of your eyes. 09:56 But they color coded every word in the sentence, 09:58 was keyed into thematic material 10:02 in the whole Quran. 10:03 I've never seen one of those I'd to-- maybe next time 10:07 I get to travel to Turkey, yes. 10:09 But you know, in other countries, 10:11 obviously in an Asian country I remember I did take 10:13 the little book of Buddhist sayings. 10:16 I've read that. 10:18 And I read the Bhagavad-Gita and a few other things. 10:22 Apologies to my Mormon friends but I've struggled mightily 10:25 to read the Book of Mormon, but I've tried. 10:28 And I think trying is the key. 10:30 When we invest ourselves in understanding others, 10:35 then we put ourselves in a better position 10:38 to establish a relevant presence in their life 10:41 that is not immediately marginalizing. 10:46 I mean, I'm comfortable, more than comfortable. 10:49 I'm convicted of the truth of the Bible 10:52 and the interpretations that informed 10:56 Seventh-day Adventism as a reform movement, 10:58 preparing people to meet the-- promise 11:01 return of the Lord Jesus Christ. 11:03 You know, I'm not unsure of that. 11:05 But I think it can only enriches 11:08 when we are aware of the spiritual realities 11:11 and I talked a little privately about this. 11:14 I think the United States, as a political entity 11:17 is operating from a deficit 11:19 of lack of knowledge about 11:23 what's making the other tick if you like. 11:26 I see it all the time. 11:28 And part of it is good intentions. 11:30 But it's a naivety that could be almost fatal. 11:35 I would spend the summers of my youth 11:37 not far from here in East St. Louis, Illinois. 11:40 And my grandfather would take us fishing. 11:44 He said he wasn't Adventist and since we were 11:49 and my parents objected to hunting. 11:51 He said "I ain't gonna take you all hunting. 11:53 But you got to learn to fish." 11:55 So he'd take us fishing. 11:57 Is it catch and release? 12:00 Catch and eat? 12:02 Catch, clean and eat. 12:03 And-- So he told us that you know, 12:07 you decide what kind of fish you want to go for. 12:10 And it helps to know what kind of bait they like. 12:13 So if we're going to be effective fishers of men, 12:16 we have to know something about the men 12:20 that we're trying to catch. 12:22 And we have to be informed fishermen. 12:26 It's a very good point. 12:27 I've just come back from the Middle East 12:29 and from the Sea of Galilee and our guide 12:32 was pushing some of the same stuff 12:34 but he didn't really say the obvious thing. 12:37 Choose your bait carefully. 12:38 Yeah, they probably do net fishing 12:40 over there and you just... 12:41 Well, he raised the point 12:44 that I never thought of, can't prove it. 12:46 But from the shore, He said, when Jesus said, 12:48 "Cast your net out the other side" 12:50 He was in a position, 12:51 He might have seen water roiling 12:53 a bit from the fish there. 12:54 Could be. 12:55 God, just because He was God... 12:57 Well, yes, didn't discount that. 13:00 But He did go into a lot of the technical things 13:02 that were implicit in those texts or explicit in the text 13:05 but we don't see it in our translation. 13:08 Like, for example, the eye of the needle. 13:11 He said, when Jesus said that they were mending their nets. 13:14 And He says the-- one of the terms used there, 13:17 it was the needle that they used to sew the nets. 13:22 I've always thought it was a gate in the wall. 13:23 Well, that's what I thought. 13:25 I'm so-- here we... 13:26 Yeah, I've learned something today. 13:28 We'll be back after a short break. Stay with us. 13:30 Interesting discussion, Clashes of Civilizations, 13:33 Clash of Religions. |
Revised 2015-12-24