Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000308B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break with Doctor-- 00:10 I nearly said John Graz, you're a predecessor. 00:13 I'm so used to him. 00:14 But this is Ganoune Diop, my good friend 00:16 and director of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty 00:19 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 00:20 And before the break we'd been talking about 00:22 the Adventist imperative 00:24 and charter for religious liberty 00:26 which is integrally tied with our history. 00:30 We're a product of the mid 1800s in the United States 00:33 of the Millerite Movement, and then self consciously 00:37 the inheritors of the reformation. 00:39 You mean, 1900, right you mean? 00:41 Eighteen-- No, the 1818, mid 1800s 00:45 is when the Seventh-day Adventist Church began. 00:50 And we inherit the reformation charter, if you like. 00:56 Well, I've got to tell you, 00:57 and I want to just brain storm a little bit on this. 01:01 I thought a lot more of the reformation of light 01:03 because not too many weeks and ago now, 01:08 the all of Washington was, all the twitter, 01:12 about a state visit from Pope Francis 01:16 from the Roman Catholic Church, coming on-- 01:20 I think an Alitalia airline into Andrews Air Force Base 01:23 and the adulation is just overwhelming 01:27 and that's wonderful, on a PR sense. 01:31 I'm happy for he and his organization 01:34 and the legislators are so happy 01:37 to have a foreign leader speak. 01:39 The last it happened 01:40 remember, with Prime Minister Netanyahu, 01:43 there was a quite a bitter taste... 01:44 Correct. 01:47 But looking at this form the point of prophecy 01:50 as an Adventist and as an inheritor of the reformation 01:56 I'm struck at how things have changed 01:58 because the United States once defined itself 02:01 as Protestant society, never a Protestant government. 02:06 It had cautions against 02:11 the old mother Church to give its own term. 02:16 And so what has changed? 02:17 That's what I'd like to discuss. 02:19 What's going on here? 02:21 because there's something remarkable 02:23 from a point of history 02:24 and of course, religious history. 02:26 Yeah, well, what has happened, 02:29 probably one of the biggest change 02:31 as far as America is concerned for us from that prospective 02:34 and then I will share other things, 02:38 is that the time, when Roman Catholics 02:42 or Catholics who were prosecuted in this country-- 02:44 Yes, and I'm glad you brought that up. 02:46 This is been a great prejudice in the past. 02:50 People forgot that part but I think 02:54 it was the election of Kennedy that started turning you know, 02:57 turning the tide and so far and so on. 02:59 But the Catholic had historically 03:01 a very hard time in America, 03:04 not being able to hold office in, 03:06 you know, etcetera, etcetera. 03:07 So that has completely changed. 03:08 Well, they were-- 03:10 Well, I need to stick up for the United States. 03:13 The constitution has that clause 03:15 that says, no religious test for public office. 03:17 So there was no legal prohibition 03:20 but there was a social frown 03:23 that the meant to was very difficult in way back, 03:25 not lately, in fact-- 03:27 No, no, no but this is what I said earlier, 03:28 remember, I made a distinction between 03:31 constitutional provisions and popular hostility 03:35 and there was-- I was stating the fact that-- 03:37 And even and I've stated on this program before 03:39 most people have forgotten the Ku Klux Klan, 03:41 the infamous and even to this day 03:44 from what it did before the civil rights moment, 03:48 of course, it was very racist 03:49 but its equal plank of its activities 03:51 was Anti-Catholicism. 03:53 It was wide Protestant America there. 03:55 So that's regrettable, not defensible 03:58 and that's changed, that's good. 03:59 And the only reason why I mention that is that I'm glad 04:03 the Catholics have benefited from religious liberty. 04:06 Yes, absolutely. Good, I like that. 04:08 Because that's, that's, you know, 04:10 so the Catholic in this country 04:13 and the arrival of their leaders 04:16 shows clearly that there is a complete, you know, 04:19 reversal of those obscured times, you know, 04:23 when their religious freedom wouldn't have expect that. 04:25 Well, let me ask you the big question 04:27 and I suspect something along these lines. 04:31 Is it because we've re-thought those problems 04:35 which shouldn't been 04:37 and had a change of heart in the United States? 04:39 Or is-- it also because and to what degree 04:45 the understandings that formed the Protestants sensibility 04:48 have sort of drifted away? 04:51 Well, you know, I would not venture 04:53 to judge Protestantism personally, 04:55 all I'm saying though that is, which is clear. 04:58 Well, we need to. We are the public commentators. 04:59 Remember Senator Santorum, a Roman Catholic Senator, 05:04 who then ran for U.S. President. 05:06 He ventured to make a public statement. 05:08 He said, "Protestantism is absent in America today." 05:11 Well, I didn't know, I think it's more complex than that-- 05:14 Well, of course it is very complex 05:16 and we need to discuss it. 05:17 Yes, so precisely this is where I think 05:20 we have to be very specific and discipline about, 05:23 you know, the kind of-- 05:25 Something is changed. 05:26 Yes, exactly, so but what and why? 05:29 So I would venture though, to say, 05:31 probably both in a sense that it's clear 05:35 that on the one hand, America has changed, 05:38 I mean, I'm talking about the popular hostility. 05:40 Some for the good. 05:42 Absolutely, this was for the good 05:44 to allow Roman Catholics to be able to be accepted 05:48 as an integral part of American society, 05:51 I mean, that is very good. 05:53 On the other side, you have the Roman Catholic Church 05:56 also has changed many, I mean, before even. 06:02 But then-- now, you have to-- 06:04 we have to be fair to the Roman Catholic 06:06 as I was trying to do for Muslims, you know, 06:09 not to put everything into. 06:11 Catholics, the Catholic Church through out these two million 06:14 and so forth of their claim 06:16 have had many reformers before Martin Luther. 06:20 You know, who tried to-- Although, I've noticed. 06:22 I've-- just on Friday, I was at a Catholic All Day Seminar 06:26 and I've noticed again for the latest time 06:28 they are owning the reformers now. 06:30 Well-- 06:31 And it is true they came from the Roman Catholic Church, 06:33 but they don't see them as other, 06:35 their outer form is in-- and they're accepting, 06:38 we've moved in the direction that they pushed. 06:40 And I think that is part of the Catholic ethos to be-- 06:44 to be encompassing. 06:47 I mean, Catholic means universal, 06:49 so they and-- and it's true historically 06:52 that Martin Luther did not set out 06:55 to leave the Catholic Church, right so, okay. 06:58 But I think it is important to notice, 07:02 yes, you have inside Catholics tradition attempts 07:07 at reforming the Church there were several, right? 07:10 And before Martin Luther and then after. 07:13 And you even have a counter reformation 07:16 because the Catholic wanted also to review 07:19 and since Pope Francis-- 07:21 And it's worth mentioning, the counter reformation 07:22 gave rise to the Jesuits and may have the Jesuit Popes. 07:26 And it's not immaterial. 07:28 No, no, yeah, but when Pope Francis came 07:30 and you know, now, everybody is talking about 07:33 his attempt to reform the Catholic Church. 07:35 Again, he is seen as a new reformer 07:38 who is about themselves. 07:39 Now, but-- 07:41 Which is very refreshing, 07:42 as an observer looking at their organization. 07:44 Absolutely, now something has to be said 07:47 about the Catholic engagement 07:50 and Catholics have done a lot of good. 07:52 I mean, when you think about the hospital they've created, 07:55 their charitable work around the world it's remarkable 07:58 and I think we should, you know, 08:00 some people just throw everything and no. 08:03 Catholics have and are doing lot of good around the world. 08:08 And if the current Pope particularly has engage the-- 08:13 I mean, current global concerns like climate change, 08:19 inequality because the-- you know, 08:21 as you know the latest encyclical and-- 08:25 On the environment. On the environment. 08:27 But the one that I've thought you're going to refer to 08:29 is Caritas et Veritas. 08:31 No, no. 08:32 Veritate because it looks at everything. 08:34 Correct. 08:35 Sovereignty, labor relations, ecology and so on. 08:39 But this one though is very focus in-- 08:43 with issues that resonate with the global world. 08:46 And when you think about currently, 08:48 most of the meetings about climate justice, 08:51 about inequality, to an extreme and poverty and hunger. 08:55 These are wonderful points that he's raised. 08:57 And then actually taking the-- 08:59 both the millennium development goal 09:01 and the sustainable development goal 09:03 are the goals at the U.N. 09:05 So the-- I mean, Catholic Pope is definitely leaving his time, 09:10 wanting to be part of the change agents 09:13 around the world. 09:14 Now, the problem that would see is-- 09:19 I mean, if I say the problem it is the right-- 09:21 The complication. The complication, well-- 09:24 That's what I would say 09:25 but I don't want to put words in your mouth. 09:27 It is that people ought to know that also 09:30 that the Catholic are promoting their world view 09:33 but they have the right to do so. 09:34 Absolutely. 09:36 For example, in that same encyclical 09:38 where the pope, you know, 09:40 talk about environment and so forth, 09:41 he also gives suggestions about the understanding of Eucharist, 09:46 the role of Mary, the chain of Sunday-- 09:50 Sunday worship. 09:52 I mean, the importance of Sunday for the common good 09:54 etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 09:55 So of course the world can enjoy, can appreciate, 10:01 can affirm, what the Catholic are doing without-- 10:05 And you're right, I'm glad 10:06 you're giving this balancing act 10:08 because if we were talking doctrine say-- 10:14 Baptist to Catholics or Adventist to Catholics, 10:17 then we can dissect it, 10:18 and can take it on a different level. 10:20 We're talking religious liberty in the international events. 10:22 We can't hold anyone accountable 10:25 for holding deeply held views that we may not share. 10:29 Religious freedom allows that. 10:30 Absolutely. Catholics have the right. 10:32 Where I have some apprehensions is-- 10:36 in the United States with its separation of church and state 10:39 we sort of blind sided when a head of state 10:42 who happens to be the head of a church comes in, 10:44 so you sort of it's a mix thing. 10:46 You're not sure one moment 10:48 these are very valid civil concepts 10:51 and then another moment the Sunday is introduced. 10:53 And I just think people are not quite protected. 10:56 The document Caritas et Veritate, 11:01 which is a great document. 11:03 It was actually reviewed by Hoppers -- 11:05 by New Republic as a civil document 11:09 and they said it's a wonderful out line of the problems. 11:12 But then it said the problem is, 11:14 you accept this document the Pope comes with it. 11:16 Well, that might even be fine, 11:18 but I was troubled there in that document, 11:20 his predecessor Benedict mentioned-- 11:24 he said, there is a need for a global authority, 11:27 a global-- 11:29 I think it was authority to deal with these issues, 11:32 with the power to act and the power to enforce. 11:34 I don't like it, and we're on religious liberty 11:36 we've already said you don't force. 11:38 So this is what-- So that's where I cautioned. 11:42 It's crossing a line that makes me uncomfortable. 11:45 Yeah, this is the reason why more than ever before 11:50 religious liberty should be put-- 11:52 Absolutely, front and center. 11:54 Yes, because it is again, a compound freedom 11:57 and it will keep us alert 11:59 that the domains will not be confused. 12:01 And for the United States, the constitution is important. 12:04 But I think this is the moment to remind ourselves 12:06 the reformation had real reasons 12:09 and we shouldn't have the religious wars 12:12 that followed it again. 12:14 But we should remind ourselves there are distinct differences 12:17 and when we hear a voice judge it on those parameters. 12:19 But again, I insist on the fact that 12:22 Jews have the right to believe 12:24 that they are the chosen people of God. 12:27 Muslim have the right to believe and to proclaim 12:30 that they have the perfect religion, they have that right. 12:35 Catholics have the right to believe that, you know, 12:39 that they are the only legitimate church 12:43 and the orthodox Christians get, 12:45 every religious denomination can claim. 12:50 Religious liberty allows that. 12:52 However, we should go deeper though 12:55 in sharing truth with each one. 12:57 And discussing and dialoging 13:00 for the betterment of the human family. 13:05 A few years ago a Country and Western Singer 13:09 of some fame recorded a music video with these words, 13:14 "Jesus spoke about it, the prophets wrote about it, 13:18 and it's going by the book." 13:21 when I see some of the events of recent days, 13:24 most particularly, the much ballyhooed people 13:28 visit to Washington D.C. 13:31 as well as some of the disasters, 13:33 the fires, the earth quacks, 13:35 the convolutions in one nation after another, 13:38 I'm reminded that it is indeed going by the book. 13:44 And as a religious liberty activist, 13:47 I'm reminded also that we need to speak freedom, 13:50 we need to speak of the liberty that's obtainable in Christ 13:54 while we can, because "the night cometh," 13:57 as Jesus said, "when no man can teach." 14:00 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln steed. |
Revised 2015-10-15