Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break with Doctor--
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I nearly said John
Graz, you're a predecessor.
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I'm so used to him.
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But this is Ganoune
Diop, my good friend
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and director of Public
Affairs and Religious Liberty
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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And before the break
we'd been talking about
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the Adventist imperative
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and charter for
religious liberty
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which is integrally
tied with our history.
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We're a product of the
mid 1800s in the United States
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of the Millerite Movement,
and then self consciously
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the inheritors
of the reformation.
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You mean, 1900, right you mean?
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Eighteen-- No,
the 1818, mid 1800s
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is when the Seventh-day
Adventist Church began.
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And we inherit the reformation
charter, if you like.
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Well, I've got to tell you,
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and I want to just brain
storm a little bit on this.
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I thought a lot more of
the reformation of light
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because not too
many weeks and ago now,
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the all of
Washington was, all the twitter,
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about a state
visit from Pope Francis
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from the Roman
Catholic Church, coming on--
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I think an Alitalia airline
into Andrews Air Force Base
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and the adulation
is just overwhelming
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and that's
wonderful, on a PR sense.
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I'm happy for he
and his organization
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and the legislators are so happy
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to have a foreign leader speak.
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The last it happened
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remember, with
Prime Minister Netanyahu,
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there was a
quite a bitter taste...
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Correct.
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But looking at this
form the point of prophecy
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as an Adventist and as an
inheritor of the reformation
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I'm struck at how
things have changed
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because the United
States once defined itself
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as Protestant society,
never a Protestant government.
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It had cautions against
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the old mother
Church to give its own term.
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And so what has changed?
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That's what I'd like to discuss.
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What's going on here?
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because there's
something remarkable
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from a point of history
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and of course,
religious history.
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Yeah, well, what has happened,
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probably one of
the biggest change
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as far as America is concerned
for us from that prospective
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and then I will
share other things,
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is that the time,
when Roman Catholics
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or Catholics who were
prosecuted in this country--
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Yes, and I'm glad
you brought that up.
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This is been a great
prejudice in the past.
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People forgot
that part but I think
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it was the election of Kennedy
that started turning you know,
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turning the tide
and so far and so on.
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But the
Catholic had historically
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a very hard time in America,
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not being able
to hold office in,
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you know, etcetera, etcetera.
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So that has completely changed.
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Well, they were--
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Well, I need to stick
up for the United States.
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The constitution has that clause
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that says, no religious
test for public office.
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So there was no
legal prohibition
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but there was a social frown
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that the meant to was
very difficult in way back,
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not lately, in fact--
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No, no, no but this
is what I said earlier,
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remember, I made a
distinction between
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constitutional
provisions and popular hostility
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and there was-- I was
stating the fact that--
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And even and I've
stated on this program before
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most people have
forgotten the Ku Klux Klan,
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the infamous
and even to this day
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from what it did before
the civil rights moment,
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of course, it was very racist
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but its equal
plank of its activities
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was Anti-Catholicism.
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It was wide
Protestant America there.
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So that's
regrettable, not defensible
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and that's changed, that's good.
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And the only reason why I
mention that is that I'm glad
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the Catholics have benefited
from religious liberty.
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Yes, absolutely.
Good, I like that.
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Because that's,
that's, you know,
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so the Catholic in this country
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and the arrival of their leaders
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shows clearly that
there is a complete, you know,
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reversal of those
obscured times, you know,
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when their religious freedom
wouldn't have expect that.
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Well, let me ask
you the big question
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and I suspect
something along these lines.
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Is it because we've
re-thought those problems
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which shouldn't been
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and had a change of
heart in the United States?
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Or is-- it also
because and to what degree
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the understandings that formed
the Protestants sensibility
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have sort of drifted away?
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Well, you know,
I would not venture
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to judge
Protestantism personally,
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all I'm saying though
that is, which is clear.
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Well, we need to. We
are the public commentators.
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Remember Senator Santorum,
a Roman Catholic Senator,
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who then ran for U.S. President.
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He ventured to
make a public statement.
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He said, "Protestantism
is absent in America today."
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Well, I didn't know, I think
it's more complex than that--
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Well, of course
it is very complex
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and we need to discuss it.
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Yes, so precisely
this is where I think
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we have to be very
specific and discipline about,
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you know, the kind of--
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Something is changed.
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Yes, exactly, so
but what and why?
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So I would
venture though, to say,
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probably both in a
sense that it's clear
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that on the one
hand, America has changed,
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I mean, I'm talking
about the popular hostility.
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Some for the good.
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Absolutely,
this was for the good
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to allow Roman Catholics
to be able to be accepted
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as an integral part
of American society,
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I mean, that is very good.
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On the other side, you
have the Roman Catholic Church
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also has changed
many, I mean, before even.
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But then-- now, you have to--
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we have to be fair
to the Roman Catholic
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as I was trying to do
for Muslims, you know,
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not to put everything into.
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Catholics, the Catholic Church
through out these two million
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and so forth of their claim
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have had many
reformers before Martin Luther.
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You know, who tried
to-- Although, I've noticed.
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I've-- just on Friday, I was
at a Catholic All Day Seminar
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and I've noticed
again for the latest time
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they are owning
the reformers now.
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Well--
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And it is true they came
from the Roman Catholic Church,
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but they don't
see them as other,
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their outer form is
in-- and they're accepting,
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we've moved in the
direction that they pushed.
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And I think that is part
of the Catholic ethos to be--
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to be encompassing.
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I mean,
Catholic means universal,
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so they and-- and
it's true historically
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that Martin
Luther did not set out
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to leave the Catholic
Church, right so, okay.
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But I think it is
important to notice,
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yes, you have inside
Catholics tradition attempts
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at reforming the Church
there were several, right?
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And before Martin
Luther and then after.
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And you even have
a counter reformation
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because the Catholic
wanted also to review
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and since Pope Francis--
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And it's worth mentioning,
the counter reformation
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gave rise to the Jesuits
and may have the Jesuit Popes.
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And it's not immaterial.
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No, no, yeah, but
when Pope Francis came
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and you know, now,
everybody is talking about
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his attempt to
reform the Catholic Church.
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Again, he is
seen as a new reformer
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who is about themselves.
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Now, but--
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Which is very refreshing,
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as an observer
looking at their organization.
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Absolutely, now
something has to be said
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about the Catholic engagement
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and Catholics have
done a lot of good.
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I mean, when you think about
the hospital they've created,
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their charitable work
around the world it's remarkable
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and I think we should, you know,
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some people just
throw everything and no.
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Catholics have and are doing
lot of good around the world.
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And if the current Pope
particularly has engage the--
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I mean, current global
concerns like climate change,
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inequality
because the-- you know,
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as you know the
latest encyclical and--
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On the
environment. On the environment.
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But the one that I've
thought you're going to refer to
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is Caritas et Veritas.
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No, no.
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Veritate because it
looks at everything.
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Correct.
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Sovereignty, labor
relations, ecology and so on.
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But this one
though is very focus in--
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with issues that
resonate with the global world.
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And when you
think about currently,
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most of the meetings
about climate justice,
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about inequality, to an
extreme and poverty and hunger.
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These are wonderful
points that he's raised.
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And then actually taking the--
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both the
millennium development goal
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and the
sustainable development goal
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are the goals at the U.N.
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So the-- I mean, Catholic Pope
is definitely leaving his time,
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wanting to be part
of the change agents
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around the world.
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Now, the problem
that would see is--
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I mean, if I say the
problem it is the right--
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The complication.
The complication, well--
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That's what I would say
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but I don't want to
put words in your mouth.
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It is that people
ought to know that also
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that the Catholic are
promoting their world view
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but they have
the right to do so.
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Absolutely.
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For example, in
that same encyclical
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where the pope, you know,
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talk about
environment and so forth,
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he also gives suggestions about
the understanding of Eucharist,
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the role of Mary,
the chain of Sunday--
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Sunday worship.
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I mean, the importance of
Sunday for the common good
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etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
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So of course the world
can enjoy, can appreciate,
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can affirm, what the
Catholic are doing without--
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And you're right, I'm glad
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you're giving this balancing act
00:10:06.84\00:10:08.17
because if we were
talking doctrine say--
00:10:08.20\00:10:14.74
Baptist to Catholics
or Adventist to Catholics,
00:10:14.78\00:10:17.58
then we can dissect it,
00:10:17.61\00:10:18.95
and can take it
on a different level.
00:10:18.98\00:10:20.35
We're talking religious liberty
in the international events.
00:10:20.38\00:10:22.88
We can't hold anyone accountable
00:10:22.92\00:10:25.65
for holding deeply held
views that we may not share.
00:10:25.69\00:10:29.42
Religious freedom allows that.
00:10:29.46\00:10:30.83
Absolutely.
Catholics have the right.
00:10:30.86\00:10:32.46
Where I have some
apprehensions is--
00:10:32.49\00:10:36.77
in the United States with its
separation of church and state
00:10:36.80\00:10:39.90
we sort of blind
sided when a head of state
00:10:39.93\00:10:42.67
who happens to be the
head of a church comes in,
00:10:42.70\00:10:44.74
so you sort of it's a mix thing.
00:10:44.77\00:10:46.34
You're not sure one moment
00:10:46.37\00:10:48.08
these are very
valid civil concepts
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and then another moment
the Sunday is introduced.
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And I just think people
are not quite protected.
00:10:53.72\00:10:56.85
The document
Caritas et Veritate,
00:10:56.89\00:10:59.55
which is a great document.
00:11:01.72\00:11:03.06
It was actually
reviewed by Hoppers --
00:11:03.09\00:11:05.16
by New Republic
as a civil document
00:11:05.19\00:11:09.13
and they said it's a wonderful
out line of the problems.
00:11:09.16\00:11:12.43
But then it said the problem is,
00:11:12.47\00:11:13.97
you accept this
document the Pope comes with it.
00:11:14.00\00:11:16.64
Well, that might even be fine,
00:11:16.67\00:11:18.34
but I was troubled
there in that document,
00:11:18.37\00:11:20.81
his predecessor
Benedict mentioned--
00:11:20.84\00:11:24.21
he said, there is a
need for a global authority,
00:11:24.25\00:11:27.38
a global--
00:11:27.42\00:11:29.22
I think it was authority
to deal with these issues,
00:11:29.25\00:11:32.29
with the power to act
and the power to enforce.
00:11:32.32\00:11:34.76
I don't like it, and
we're on religious liberty
00:11:34.79\00:11:36.96
we've already
said you don't force.
00:11:36.99\00:11:38.79
So this is what-- So
that's where I cautioned.
00:11:38.83\00:11:42.76
It's crossing a line
that makes me uncomfortable.
00:11:42.80\00:11:45.87
Yeah, this is the reason
why more than ever before
00:11:45.90\00:11:50.11
religious
liberty should be put--
00:11:50.14\00:11:52.47
Absolutely, front and center.
00:11:52.51\00:11:54.21
Yes, because it is
again, a compound freedom
00:11:54.24\00:11:57.01
and it will keep us alert
00:11:57.05\00:11:59.21
that the domains
will not be confused.
00:11:59.25\00:12:01.62
And for the United States,
the constitution is important.
00:12:01.65\00:12:04.29
But I think this is the
moment to remind ourselves
00:12:04.32\00:12:06.62
the reformation had real reasons
00:12:06.65\00:12:09.26
and we shouldn't
have the religious wars
00:12:09.29\00:12:12.63
that followed it again.
00:12:12.66\00:12:14.46
But we should remind ourselves
there are distinct differences
00:12:14.50\00:12:17.17
and when we hear a voice
judge it on those parameters.
00:12:17.20\00:12:19.57
But again, I
insist on the fact that
00:12:19.60\00:12:22.60
Jews have the right to believe
00:12:22.64\00:12:24.64
that they are the
chosen people of God.
00:12:24.67\00:12:27.01
Muslim have the right
to believe and to proclaim
00:12:27.04\00:12:30.51
that they have the perfect
religion, they have that right.
00:12:30.55\00:12:35.95
Catholics have the right
to believe that, you know,
00:12:35.98\00:12:39.05
that they are the
only legitimate church
00:12:39.09\00:12:43.36
and the orthodox Christians get,
00:12:43.39\00:12:45.79
every religious
denomination can claim.
00:12:45.83\00:12:50.20
Religious liberty allows that.
00:12:50.23\00:12:52.17
However, we
should go deeper though
00:12:52.20\00:12:55.27
in sharing truth with each one.
00:12:55.30\00:12:57.81
And discussing and dialoging
00:12:57.84\00:13:00.74
for the betterment
of the human family.
00:13:00.78\00:13:02.94
A few years ago a
Country and Western Singer
00:13:05.85\00:13:09.02
of some fame recorded a
music video with these words,
00:13:09.05\00:13:14.56
"Jesus spoke about it,
the prophets wrote about it,
00:13:14.59\00:13:18.89
and it's going by the book."
00:13:18.93\00:13:21.43
when I see some of
the events of recent days,
00:13:21.46\00:13:24.73
most particularly,
the much ballyhooed people
00:13:24.77\00:13:28.50
visit to Washington D.C.
00:13:28.54\00:13:30.97
as well as some
of the disasters,
00:13:31.01\00:13:33.84
the fires, the earth quacks,
00:13:33.88\00:13:35.71
the convolutions in
one nation after another,
00:13:35.74\00:13:38.55
I'm reminded that it is
indeed going by the book.
00:13:38.58\00:13:44.15
And as a
religious liberty activist,
00:13:44.19\00:13:47.49
I'm reminded also that
we need to speak freedom,
00:13:47.52\00:13:50.83
we need to speak of the liberty
that's obtainable in Christ
00:13:50.86\00:13:54.76
while we can,
because "the night cometh,"
00:13:54.80\00:13:57.47
as Jesus said,
"when no man can teach."
00:13:57.50\00:14:00.80
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln steed.
00:14:00.84\00:14:05.94