Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000307B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider
00:05 and the discussion with Dr. Ganoune Diop, 00:10 religious liberty, of course. 00:11 And what we were looking at, 00:15 what it means in different context 00:16 and I was trying to bring up back 00:18 to the US constitution 00:20 and the models of religious liberty 00:21 we administer in the United States. 00:24 So same principle but it's administered 00:26 very differently because of the first amendment 00:29 which well, some may not like the term 00:31 which came from Thomas Jefferson 00:34 but it's on the principle 00:35 of the separation of church and state. 00:36 Non-establishment and non-interference 00:39 in the practice of religion. 00:40 Absolutely. 00:42 But you know, I think it's really important 00:45 and I say this with that concept of one human family 00:51 and every human being, everywhere in the world, 00:53 important to God to be careful not to fall 00:59 into the trap of hierarchicalism. 01:02 Now hierarchicalism is not just what some would see for, 01:06 you know, for example, in the caste system 01:08 in some countries, hierarchicalism 01:12 can also appear in some views, 01:15 let's say of American exceptionalism 01:18 above the other nations 01:19 and I think we have to be extremely careful 01:22 if we talk about values that have certainly being, 01:27 you know, I mean, that space was created 01:30 in America with a unique history... 01:32 Well, I tell you something? 01:33 And you probably wouldn't expect this 01:34 but I know English history very well 01:36 and I believe American exceptionalism, 01:39 it has several origins. 01:40 But on the level we are heading toward now, 01:43 I think there's a bright line 01:45 or bright line to compare what the British empire had 01:48 and it was expressed through Rudyard Kipling 01:50 as The White Man's Burden. 01:52 That was England was exceptional, 01:54 we want the best for the others. 01:56 But we have great knowledge, great morality 02:01 and even great abilities and we will, for your good, 02:05 bring it to you. 02:06 By the way, this shows... 02:08 It's well intentioned but ultimately abusive. 02:11 Well, this is actually it is a common feature, 02:14 not just to America. 02:16 Oh, I'm sure human beings drifted into... 02:17 This, not just to England... 02:19 But it is the empire that preceded America, right? 02:21 Japan also had that view and actually any world power 02:26 get to that position where you think 02:28 you are above the others because of might, 02:32 because of power but this is... 02:33 But I think it developed more parallel 02:35 with England and now the US 02:37 because of the religious component. 02:38 I mean the British Empire was a Protestant mentality... 02:42 But Japan, I don't think had the religious exportation. 02:45 But we are talking about the idea of hierarchicalism, 02:50 the exceptionalism of this or that empire. 02:54 It goes back and the doing the Arab, 02:58 you know the ascendancy domination. 03:00 They also thought about the same thing 03:02 and to this very day, there are people, 03:05 even in Africa will think, "Okay," You know, 03:08 Like, "If you are closer 03:10 to the Arab model, etc, etc, etc" 03:12 So this is the same dysfunction if I may say respectfully. 03:17 And that is because of our common humanity. 03:21 No, in this was by the way, one of the beautiful, 03:26 you know, I don't know everything about 03:28 the Reformation but there was one principle 03:32 that was actually beautiful to say that 03:34 "There's no Lord over you." 03:37 And that was one of the principle also, 03:39 you know, no one above you 03:41 and this is what really Christianity 03:43 brought to a certain degree 03:44 that now there's a direct access, 03:47 this is a religion of access. 03:49 In a sense when you compare to other religion 03:51 where you have barriers to cross ritual, 03:55 you know, I mean, rite of passages and so forth. 03:57 Well, with the coming of God, God among us, Immanuel. 04:01 That is amazing to see 04:03 that now there's this access to God 04:05 and not only access to God 04:07 but God for people who enter into a covenant with Him, 04:12 even inhabit, indwell human beings 04:16 and He can do that because He is utterly other. 04:19 He created everything, 04:21 He can premier the whole creation without, 04:24 you know, losing... 04:25 Well, He's not a defused presence though. 04:27 And that you got to be careful there... 04:29 In a way we don't understand through 04:30 the medium of the Holy Spirit He can indwell us. 04:33 But He sustains everything. 04:35 He says in everything and not only that 04:37 but He also indwells 04:39 and this is one of the beautiful, 04:41 probably most extraordinary truth of Christianity 04:45 that human beings are the temples 04:47 of the Holy Spirit. 04:49 You know, people value temples, 04:53 shrines, cathedrals, synagogue and you name it 04:57 but God looking at the human person 04:59 and say, "Wow, you know you are a temple." 05:02 So that means human beings are sacred 05:04 and we come back to the sanctity 05:06 of human conscience. 05:07 In sanctity of life. Absolutely. 05:10 The value of life in every person 05:12 and this is really to me, 05:15 established the brotherhood of humanity, 05:18 in a sense that not one nation... 05:22 first of all we have to remember history, 05:25 in a sense that no nation has been able 05:28 to bring a reign of righteousness. 05:30 Go down to other history. 05:32 When Egypt, the Assyrians, the Medes and the Persians, 05:35 the Greeks, the Romans and the Byzantine empire, 05:40 the Arab Muslim, the Mongols and then the Turks, notice, 05:45 every, every major world power 05:48 end up in disaster to a certain degree 05:50 because of what they did to their own people. 05:54 They overextend, yes. And they generally overextend. 05:57 So even a man is controlled-- 06:00 Only so far and in the Bible it says, 06:01 you know, "My power goes beyond yours." 06:03 Again this is because power corrupts 06:05 and people who started even well sometime, 06:09 when they start leading, they start, again... 06:12 And of course, this is been the problem 06:13 with the Christian church as well as, 06:15 we are outsiders but you can see in Islam 06:18 but in the Christian church particularly, 06:20 during the Middle Ages, the power became the end 06:23 rather than the spirituality. 06:25 No question. 06:26 So this is why Reformation was necessary 06:29 and it is on going, by the way. 06:30 Yes. 06:32 Reformation even within, 06:34 you know, like the power that dominated 06:36 during the Middle Age, you know, the Catholics had-- 06:39 they have the Second Council, you know, Vatican 06:44 and now people are hoping that Muslims also 06:48 because in the Quran, as you know it is saying 06:50 no compulsion in religion that is so people hope 06:54 that the Muslim are going to live by that word, 06:57 even though some of them think that 06:58 those words were abrogated. 07:01 Again, this is really about freedom again, 07:06 you know the religious liberty, it is a sacred possession, 07:11 I mean, prerogative of every person 07:14 and this is why it ought to be protected, it, you know, 07:18 and when I say protected, 07:19 I'm not talking about a favor given by a government, 07:22 you know, but a right enjoyed by every citizen of the world. 07:25 Well, acknowledge by every government. 07:27 Yeah. 07:28 And I think that was the beauty of the US Constitution 07:31 which has some weaknesses but and the US society, 07:35 of course is at an up and down, 07:37 but I love the way that it acknowledges-- 07:39 A pre-existing right. Absolutely. 07:42 And I try to tell people 07:43 when I lecture on religious liberty, 07:45 no government can give it. 07:46 No, can they take it away on religious liberty? 07:49 They can restrict its practice in aberrant ways 07:52 or they can make it easier for you to practice 07:54 but you have it. 07:56 Nobody can take it away. 07:57 But there's something I would like to insert though here. 07:59 You see, for a Christian, religious liberty 08:05 or freedom itself is not the ultimate good. 08:08 God is the ultimate good. Right. 08:10 If this is the reason why some Christians... 08:13 Well, it's a means toward, moving toward God. 08:16 Well, yeah... And knowing God. 08:17 You see, and yeah, 08:19 so this is the reason why it is repeated 08:24 even eternal life that they know you. 08:26 It is in a relationship 08:28 because one can elevate religiously 08:32 with a status of an idol you know. 08:35 This is the ultimate good 08:36 so I will do everything to keep it 08:38 and this is why in the book of Ephesians... 08:39 But you and I are the priests of this transitional... 08:44 I don't know it... No, no. 08:46 We, you are right. 08:47 We are pointed people toward Christ. 08:48 No, this is... 08:50 And to the knowledge of God 08:51 and into a life of eternity with God. 08:53 This is you know, because if religious liberty 08:57 is the ultimate good, then God is put underneath that 09:01 whereas we have Christians around the world 09:04 and some, you know, I have met people. 09:07 All that those who, of course, enforcing them where I say, 09:10 "Hey, deny your faith and then you'll have freedom." 09:13 But they will rather stay in prison, 09:15 they will rather be killed rather than betray God. 09:19 Well, in Hebrews 11 it says, "Not accepting release." 09:24 And I've told people if you Foxe's Book of Martyrs, 09:27 it was an inspiration to me over the years 09:29 and I read those stories and nearly always 09:32 they was a way out if they compromise 09:33 or even at the moment 09:35 when they were about to set fire to the pyre, 09:38 you know, they would say, recant. 09:40 Change your mind and you can step down free. 09:43 And so those that are against religious liberty 09:45 often say, "You brought it on yourself." 09:47 Yeah. And in a way that's true. 09:49 It's because the commitment is to a higher purpose 09:51 and if it means you die on the way to living a life 09:56 that honors Christ on your way 09:57 to living with Him for eternity. 09:59 Fine. 10:00 You see this is why as central as religious freedom is, 10:04 it is really important to realize 10:07 that God is the ultimate good, God is the ultimate sovereign. 10:12 God is the ultimate value. 10:14 But to preserve religious freedom though, 10:18 I think people ought to around the world, 10:21 and with governments and other entities, 10:24 work to secure what is at the foundation 10:28 of human dignity that is the freedom 10:32 to believe or not to believe. 10:34 The freedom to make a choice 10:36 even the freedom to change one's religion 10:40 in order to have other affiliation. 10:43 Human beings, human dignity deserve to have this, 10:48 to have this prerogative actually 10:51 and also to be able to exercise it concretely 10:54 but again, it's a beautiful thing 10:57 when a nation start putting in its core document 11:01 that is it's institution that religious liberty counts, 11:06 that people's freedom 11:08 is not to be traded against anything else 11:11 and that the government is here to also facilitate 11:15 so that the law may allow people 11:18 to freely enjoy this God given value, 11:23 the freedom of conscience, 11:25 the freedom to believe or not to believe. 11:31 When a moral imperative presents itself by definition, 11:34 there's no time for delay. 11:36 At the moment the Western world is wondering 11:41 what to do about a growing flood of refugees 11:43 from Syria and Iraq. 11:45 There's no time for discussion, action is needed. 11:49 Not too long ago, there were quite 11:50 some thousands of Christians in Mosul, 11:52 the second largest city of Iraq, 11:55 now they are none. 11:56 The moral imperative came and went. 11:59 At the beginning of the Adventist experience, 12:01 there was an incipient national Sunday law, 12:04 there was a moral imperative to block it, 12:07 that imperative was answered 12:10 and the Sunday law was turned back. 12:12 But history does repeat itself, 12:15 prophecy will be proven in our experience 12:20 and today, I believe there's a moral imperative 12:23 to act against incipient Sunday laws, 12:26 to act against incipient 12:28 abrogations of religious liberty. 12:31 There's a moral imperative 12:32 to proclaim liberty throughout the land. 12:36 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-10-15