Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider
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and the discussion
with Dr. Ganoune Diop,
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religious liberty, of course.
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And what we were looking at,
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what it means in
different context
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and I was
trying to bring up back
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to the US constitution
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and the models
of religious liberty
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we administer in
the United States.
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So same principle
but it's administered
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very differently
because of the first amendment
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which well, some
may not like the term
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which came from Thomas Jefferson
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but it's on the principle
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of the separation
of church and state.
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Non-establishment
and non-interference
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in the practice of religion.
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Absolutely.
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But you know, I
think it's really important
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and I say this with that
concept of one human family
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and every human being,
everywhere in the world,
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important to God to
be careful not to fall
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into the trap
of hierarchicalism.
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Now hierarchicalism is not
just what some would see for,
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you know, for
example, in the caste system
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in some
countries, hierarchicalism
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can also appear in some views,
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let's say of
American exceptionalism
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above the other nations
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and I think we have
to be extremely careful
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if we talk about values
that have certainly being,
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you know, I mean,
that space was created
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in America with
a unique history...
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Well, I tell you something?
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And you probably
wouldn't expect this
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but I know
English history very well
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and I believe
American exceptionalism,
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it has several origins.
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But on the level we
are heading toward now,
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I think there's a bright line
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or bright line to compare
what the British empire had
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and it was expressed
through Rudyard Kipling
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as The White Man's Burden.
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That was
England was exceptional,
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we want the best for the others.
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But we have great
knowledge, great morality
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and even great abilities
and we will, for your good,
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bring it to you.
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By the way, this shows...
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It's well intentioned
but ultimately abusive.
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Well, this is actually
it is a common feature,
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not just to America.
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Oh, I'm sure human
beings drifted into...
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This, not just to England...
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But it is the empire
that preceded America, right?
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Japan also had that view
and actually any world power
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get to that
position where you think
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you are above the
others because of might,
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because of power but this is...
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But I think it
developed more parallel
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with England and now the US
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because of the
religious component.
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I mean the British Empire
was a Protestant mentality...
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But Japan, I don't think
had the religious exportation.
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But we are talking about
the idea of hierarchicalism,
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the exceptionalism
of this or that empire.
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It goes back and
the doing the Arab,
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you know the
ascendancy domination.
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They also thought
about the same thing
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and to this very
day, there are people,
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even in Africa will
think, "Okay," You know,
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Like, "If you are closer
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to the Arab
model, etc, etc, etc"
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So this is the same dysfunction
if I may say respectfully.
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And that is because
of our common humanity.
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No, in this was by the
way, one of the beautiful,
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you know, I don't
know everything about
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the Reformation but
there was one principle
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that was actually
beautiful to say that
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"There's no Lord over you."
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And that was one
of the principle also,
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you know, no one above you
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and this is what
really Christianity
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brought to a certain degree
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that now
there's a direct access,
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this is a religion of access.
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In a sense when you
compare to other religion
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where you have
barriers to cross ritual,
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you know, I mean, rite
of passages and so forth.
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Well, with the coming of
God, God among us, Immanuel.
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That is amazing to see
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that now there's
this access to God
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and not only access to God
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but God for people who
enter into a covenant with Him,
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even inhabit,
indwell human beings
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and He can do that
because He is utterly other.
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He created everything,
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He can premier the
whole creation without,
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you know, losing...
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Well, He's not a
defused presence though.
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And that you got
to be careful there...
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In a way we don't
understand through
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the medium of the Holy
Spirit He can indwell us.
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But He sustains everything.
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He says in
everything and not only that
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but He also indwells
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and this is one
of the beautiful,
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probably most extraordinary
truth of Christianity
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that human
beings are the temples
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of the Holy Spirit.
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You know, people value temples,
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shrines, cathedrals,
synagogue and you name it
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but God looking
at the human person
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and say, "Wow, you
know you are a temple."
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So that means
human beings are sacred
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and we come back to the sanctity
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of human conscience.
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In sanctity of life. Absolutely.
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The value of
life in every person
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and this is really to me,
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established the
brotherhood of humanity,
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in a sense that
not one nation...
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first of all we
have to remember history,
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in a sense that no
nation has been able
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to bring a reign
of righteousness.
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Go down to other history.
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When Egypt, the Assyrians,
the Medes and the Persians,
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the Greeks, the Romans
and the Byzantine empire,
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the Arab Muslim, the Mongols
and then the Turks, notice,
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every, every major world power
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end up in disaster
to a certain degree
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because of what they
did to their own people.
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They overextend, yes. And
they generally overextend.
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So even a man is controlled--
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Only so far and
in the Bible it says,
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you know, "My
power goes beyond yours."
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Again this is
because power corrupts
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and people who
started even well sometime,
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when they start
leading, they start, again...
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And of course,
this is been the problem
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with the
Christian church as well as,
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we are outsiders
but you can see in Islam
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but in the
Christian church particularly,
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during the Middle Ages,
the power became the end
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rather than the spirituality.
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No question.
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So this is why
Reformation was necessary
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and it is on going, by the way.
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Yes.
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Reformation even within,
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you know, like the
power that dominated
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during the Middle Age,
you know, the Catholics had--
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they have the Second
Council, you know, Vatican
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and now people are
hoping that Muslims also
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because in the Quran,
as you know it is saying
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no compulsion in
religion that is so people hope
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that the Muslim are
going to live by that word,
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even though some
of them think that
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those words were abrogated.
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Again, this is
really about freedom again,
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you know the religious liberty,
it is a sacred possession,
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I mean,
prerogative of every person
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and this is why it ought
to be protected, it, you know,
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and when I say protected,
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I'm not talking about a
favor given by a government,
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you know, but a right enjoyed
by every citizen of the world.
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Well, acknowledge
by every government.
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Yeah.
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And I think that was the
beauty of the US Constitution
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which has some weaknesses
but and the US society,
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of course is at an up and down,
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but I love the way
that it acknowledges--
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A pre-existing
right. Absolutely.
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And I try to tell people
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when I lecture on
religious liberty,
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no government can give it.
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No, can they take it
away on religious liberty?
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They can restrict its
practice in aberrant ways
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or they can make it
easier for you to practice
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but you have it.
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Nobody can take it away.
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But there's something I would
like to insert though here.
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You see, for a
Christian, religious liberty
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or freedom itself is
not the ultimate good.
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God is the ultimate good. Right.
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If this is the reason
why some Christians...
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Well, it's a means
toward, moving toward God.
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Well, yeah... And knowing God.
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You see, and yeah,
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so this is the
reason why it is repeated
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even eternal life
that they know you.
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It is in a relationship
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because one can
elevate religiously
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with a status of
an idol you know.
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This is the ultimate good
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so I will do
everything to keep it
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and this is why in
the book of Ephesians...
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But you and I are the
priests of this transitional...
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I don't know it... No, no.
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We, you are right.
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We are pointed
people toward Christ.
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No, this is...
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And to the knowledge of God
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and into a life
of eternity with God.
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This is you know,
because if religious liberty
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is the ultimate good,
then God is put underneath that
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whereas we have
Christians around the world
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and some, you
know, I have met people.
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All that those who, of course,
enforcing them where I say,
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"Hey, deny your faith and
then you'll have freedom."
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But they will
rather stay in prison,
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they will rather be
killed rather than betray God.
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Well, in Hebrews 11 it
says, "Not accepting release."
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And I've told people if
you Foxe's Book of Martyrs,
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it was an
inspiration to me over the years
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and I read those
stories and nearly always
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they was a way
out if they compromise
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or even at the moment
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when they were about
to set fire to the pyre,
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you know, they
would say, recant.
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Change your mind and
you can step down free.
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And so those that are
against religious liberty
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often say, "You
brought it on yourself."
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Yeah. And in a way that's true.
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It's because the commitment
is to a higher purpose
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and if it means you die
on the way to living a life
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that honors Christ on your way
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to living with Him for eternity.
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Fine.
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You see this is why as
central as religious freedom is,
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it is really
important to realize
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that God is the ultimate good,
God is the ultimate sovereign.
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God is the ultimate value.
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But to preserve
religious freedom though,
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I think people
ought to around the world,
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and with
governments and other entities,
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work to secure what
is at the foundation
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of human dignity
that is the freedom
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to believe or not to believe.
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The freedom to make a choice
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even the freedom to
change one's religion
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in order to have
other affiliation.
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Human beings, human
dignity deserve to have this,
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to have this
prerogative actually
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and also to be able
to exercise it concretely
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but again, it's
a beautiful thing
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when a nation start
putting in its core document
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that is it's institution
that religious liberty counts,
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that people's freedom
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is not to be traded
against anything else
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and that the government
is here to also facilitate
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so that the law may allow people
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to freely enjoy
this God given value,
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the freedom of conscience,
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the freedom to
believe or not to believe.
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When a moral imperative
presents itself by definition,
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there's no time for delay.
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At the moment the
Western world is wondering
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what to do about a
growing flood of refugees
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from Syria and Iraq.
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There's no time for
discussion, action is needed.
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Not too long
ago, there were quite
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some thousands of
Christians in Mosul,
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the second largest city of Iraq,
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now they are none.
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The moral
imperative came and went.
00:11:56.38\00:11:59.21
At the beginning of
the Adventist experience,
00:11:59.25\00:12:01.72
there was an
incipient national Sunday law,
00:12:01.75\00:12:04.55
there was a moral
imperative to block it,
00:12:04.59\00:12:07.62
that imperative was answered
00:12:07.66\00:12:10.03
and the Sunday
law was turned back.
00:12:10.06\00:12:12.73
But history does repeat itself,
00:12:12.76\00:12:15.73
prophecy will be
proven in our experience
00:12:15.76\00:12:20.20
and today, I believe
there's a moral imperative
00:12:20.24\00:12:23.64
to act against
incipient Sunday laws,
00:12:23.67\00:12:26.41
to act against incipient
00:12:26.44\00:12:28.94
abrogations of
religious liberty.
00:12:28.98\00:12:31.11
There's a moral imperative
00:12:31.15\00:12:32.61
to proclaim liberty
throughout the land.
00:12:32.65\00:12:36.75
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:36.79\00:12:42.22