Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000307A
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00:23 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:25 This is the program that brings you 00:26 news, views, discussion, 00:28 updated information about religious liberty. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:36 And my guest on the program is Dr. Ganoune Diop. 00:40 Very interesting name, Ganoune, that reflects you're African 00:43 and I think it hints at the European connection too. 00:48 You lived in France. 00:49 Now you are at the world head quarters 00:51 of The Seventh-day Adventist Church 00:52 in Washington, D.C. 00:54 heading up our religious liberty public affairs 00:57 and religious liberty work. 00:58 Yeah, absolutely. 01:00 They're connected but they are not quite the same. 01:01 Are they? No, actually-- 01:03 May you could explain the difference. 01:04 They are intersections but public affair 01:07 is we need the broader umbrella 01:10 that this is the visible face 01:11 of the church, the relationship. 01:14 And projecting the church itself, 01:15 not just our religious liberty message. 01:17 Actually public affairs is like sharing the reputation, 01:23 the good reputation of the church, 01:25 Adventist assets to society. 01:27 Adventists are blessings to society. 01:29 But instead of letting other people define that 01:33 or interpret on their own you know, and so forth so on, 01:36 we also have our voice to share who we are. 01:42 This is about relationships with governments. 01:45 But relationship with civil leaders, 01:48 public officers, just an example, 01:53 every Seventh Adventist church 01:54 had to acquire license to build somewhere. 02:01 But how do you do that? 02:02 How do you introduce this Seventh-day Adventist Church 02:04 to a mayor, to a public official? 02:07 How do you make a case that you are an asset to society 02:12 rather than a nuisance? 02:14 This is not just improvised. True, and we know. 02:16 We believe in experiences showing churches 02:19 are a positive in the community. 02:20 Absolutely. 02:21 This is a very good role of you Diop. 02:23 But you have to make a case. And also there are problems. 02:27 I mean, as you know, we Adventist, 02:29 we celebrate the Sabbath, the seventh's day. 02:35 In many areas there will be problems 02:38 because some people did not recognize that right. 02:41 So we have to be proactive. Explain ourselves. 02:45 Talk to people, explain that yes, 02:48 there are Christians who also are loyal to this, 02:53 to a God through the Sabbath 02:56 and that's not a judgment against. 02:58 You know that's not a judgment 03:00 because people have the right to choose. 03:02 Again, the right to believe whatever they want to believe. 03:05 That's not a judgment into religious liberty sense. 03:07 In a mission sense, we have to project our views. 03:12 No question. Yes. 03:13 Maybe that at times that it could be counted, 03:16 you know, can be put against some other view 03:18 that we could say as wrong. 03:20 But religious liberty is not about condemning 03:22 another person's faith, is it? 03:24 Well. No. It can't be. 03:26 It's the right of everyone to believe everything. 03:27 In fact, I once said, I remembered 03:30 we were lined up for a meeting in Hawaii 03:32 with a number of different church leaders 03:35 and we were talking about this 03:36 and I said, "For me religious liberty means 03:39 that even I find your belief puerile, foolish, 03:43 I will defend your right to believe it do the death." 03:45 Yeah. 03:47 But to be a true religious liberty activist, 03:49 doesn't have to mean. 03:50 in fact, it shouldn't require 03:52 that I have any particular affinity for what you hold. 03:56 I believe in your right as a fellow human being. 03:58 No question and I think this part of the understanding 04:01 religious liberty for all, freedom of conscience for all. 04:05 Again that almost, you know, 04:08 what we have repeated here several times. 04:10 That is because every human person 04:13 has infinite dignity 04:15 and a right to believe or not to believe, 04:18 freedom of thought, of conscience, 04:20 of belief is part of what it means to be human. 04:26 And definitely but, however, there is another aspect. 04:29 Religious liberty means also responsibility. 04:32 It doesn't mean, "Okay, I have the right, 04:34 you know, I can do whatever I want." 04:36 That's not the idea. 04:38 This is the reason 04:40 why in the Seventh-day Adventist tradition, 04:43 it is not just religious liberty, 04:44 it is also truth. 04:46 And that is truth about God, truth about human being. 04:50 Because my respect is not just. 04:53 okay, my respect of any human being 04:55 is not based just on an enlightenment 04:58 humanistic principle which is good 05:02 because I mean, you know, people believe that... 05:04 You are getting at what I specifically said 05:06 at program there is constitutional, 05:08 historic and theological aspects. 05:09 Absolutely, so theological and social 05:12 and you know, the-- and spiritual 05:14 because this is one aspect I did not mention earlier. 05:19 You see, yes, constitutional and so far, 05:23 but the spiritual aspect is there 05:26 because God is a God of freedom. 05:28 And I mentioned Jesus has emphasized freedom. 05:34 I mean, He pressed his disciple, 05:36 "don't you want to go." 05:38 You know, so I mean, you're free to change religion. 05:40 You know. Yeah. 05:41 But furthermore though, furthermore, 05:44 Christianity itself according to Galatians Chapter 5, 05:48 And this is extremely important. 05:52 Galatians 5 begins with 05:55 "Christ has called you to freedom. 05:58 Christ has set you free for freedom." 06:01 But it doesn't stay there. 06:04 Well, Paul calls the gospel itself. 06:06 The gospel of liberty. Of Liberty. 06:08 It's all about freedom. 06:10 But it continues in that same Chapter 06:13 in a magnificent way. 06:15 How do we know a free person 06:17 according to Paul's prospective in Galatians. 06:20 This is the Chapter where he talks about 06:23 the fruit of the spirit. 06:26 So basically that means then. And freedom in not license. 06:29 He says, "Do we do all these things? 06:31 God forbid." Yeah, absolutely. 06:32 So freedom is to position oneself 06:36 actually to receive the fruit of the Holy Spirit, 06:39 the nine fruits and beautifully said. 06:42 Paul talk about love... All the manifestations. 06:43 Love, so freedom to love, joy, freedom to live in joy, 06:49 peace, freedom connected to peace. 06:53 So this is the most comprehensive. 06:55 And then patience with others. 06:58 You know, not this arrogant attitude. 07:00 So this is why when you see a person arrogant 07:03 or you know, like demeaning others, 07:06 that person is in bondage. 07:08 When you have the fruit of the Holy Spirit, 07:10 that is true freedom. 07:12 "Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness." 07:17 Now think about the gentleness, 07:19 I mean treating other people's life. 07:21 "There is no such law." Absolutely, self control. 07:24 Not self gratification by any means necessary 07:27 in subjugating other people. 07:30 You see, the Biblical prospective 07:32 of freedom is much deeper, is more profound than, 07:36 you know, sometime many people even intimate 07:41 but there is more to Biblical freedom. 07:44 So you see through 07:46 the religious liberty department. 07:47 We're promoting-- in promoting this, 07:48 we're promoting the gospel. 07:50 We are promoting deeper values. 07:52 You see, now this is interesting 07:54 because if you take, for example, 07:58 the idea of human dignity and I come back to that 08:02 because Immanuel Kant, philosopher, 08:04 now this he was speaking in secular term, 08:07 even though he was talking about values, 08:09 the foundations for morals and so forth. 08:12 It is interesting that he calls human dignity 08:15 an over lapping principle that could be applied, 08:20 not only in the religious world but in secular society. 08:23 So there are some intersections in terms of values, 08:27 when I mentioned the United Nations earlier. 08:30 It's not because. In another program. 08:33 Yes, it is not because you embrace some value 08:38 that means you embrace the whole institution. 08:41 No, but there are intersections, 08:43 some common values. 08:44 What is good can be shared by several different entities. 08:49 Now so the same thing for religious liberty 08:53 and I think that this is some thing, 08:55 freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, 08:58 human dignity, all those good things. 09:00 So when Christians share an Adventist, 09:03 in particular, these values, of course, 09:07 they are part of Gospel, the fruit of the spirit, 09:10 why am I a peace advocate? 09:12 Why do I subscribe in peace making? 09:16 You know, well because this is a, 09:18 first of all, God is a God of peace. 09:20 Do you believe that, in particular, this church, 09:23 they do, all Christians but in consistent 09:26 with this view of liberty and freedom 09:28 and a broader intersecting view, 09:31 do you think that it is contingent on us 09:33 to speak out against say, human trafficking, 09:36 against obortion, against environmental degradation. 09:41 Do you think we should connect these things? 09:43 Morally they are connected. We are part of the world. 09:46 Right? 09:47 The well being of the world, it should be concern of ours. 09:51 No question about that. 09:53 But does it mean, but again, 09:55 it has to be undergirded by evangelical values. 09:59 Meaning by that, by advocating this or that, 10:04 I am not gonna become a murderer of people 10:06 who hold different values. 10:09 This is where we have to be very careful, 10:10 in how we advocate things. 10:13 I can disagree with a person who ever that person is, 10:17 without crossing the boundary to violate 10:22 the physical integrity of that person. 10:25 This is where I can disagree, morally speaking, 10:29 with this or that position, with out looking that person 10:34 or deserving to be eliminated or something like that. 10:37 You see this is where again, when I said earlier, 10:42 in another program that moral values are also, 10:48 interdependent, integrated into one whole 10:51 and that is God, by the way. 10:53 I agree with you on you know, this is wonderfully expressed. 10:56 It seems to me in the United States 10:58 where the Seventh-day Adventist Church began, 11:00 it's not a, you know, 11:03 it's not the long and the short of it. 11:04 It's a universal call but it began in the US, 11:08 is a happy coincidence that the constitution 11:11 is designed to uphold religious liberty 11:13 and the construct is separation of church and state. 11:18 That provides I think, 11:19 an easier model to define it publically. 11:24 What you are fishing toward 11:27 in these more general statements, 11:29 I think is better or one of better, 11:31 but can be also expressed as no compulsion 11:36 or no aggression toward another person. 11:39 You need to respect them. 11:40 And it seems to me, 11:42 at the moment in the United States, 11:44 we've got the worst of both wills. 11:45 People are against increasingly separation 11:48 of church and state, claiming that it's not 11:50 what the first amendment really is calling for. 11:53 Some people, because that's... 11:55 Yes, there is always exceptions. 11:56 But the body of those 11:59 that are defending religious liberty, 12:00 they are not seperationists anymore. 12:03 And they are also actually creating religious privilege 12:08 which I think there is a thin line 12:09 between religious privilege and religious aggression. 12:13 Don't you think? 12:14 You know, when I demand legally an exception 12:17 from our religion over all others, 12:19 in an other context, when I force that 12:22 or you know, when I emphasize that it could result 12:25 in actual physicality, violence. 12:30 So this is why I think religious liberty 12:33 goes also with other, 12:35 you know, other values like the principle of equality. 12:39 Yeah. Okay. 12:41 And the principal of non discrimination. 12:43 I mean, again... Yes, absolutely. 12:46 The civil rights moving in the US, 12:48 I don't think it was any accident 12:49 that the churches were involved 12:51 because it's the spiritual principle 12:52 of religious liberty. 12:53 But here, of course, because we are in America 12:56 and I am careful in what I am saying. 12:58 Sometime people resist the principle of equality. 13:04 I when I say the principle of equality, 13:06 I'm thinking about a general principle 13:08 of God taking all human beings as equal. 13:11 And that's a central, central understanding. 13:14 We need to interrupt for a moment. 13:16 We will take a quick break, we'll be right back. 13:17 We'll continue this discussion. Stay with us. |
Revised 2015-10-15