Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000304B
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00:03 Welcome back to "Liberty Insider."
00:04 Before the break with guest, Dr. Diop, 00:08 we were talking about the United Nations 00:09 which you know very well because you have been 00:11 the liaison for the Seventh-day Adventist Church 00:14 before your present responsibilities 00:16 hitting up our public affairs and religious liberty. 00:19 I want to ask you a question, you speak about the-- 00:24 Different aspects of the U.N. to work for dignity 00:29 and freedom for all peoples and so on 00:31 but something happened recently at the U.N. 00:34 that I think goes against 00:35 many ways its foundational principles. 00:38 A coalition of nations, many form the Middle East 00:42 but not only the Middle East have been pushing 00:45 and have even gotten some advance resolutions 00:47 through restricting-- 00:51 Defamation of religion or defining-- 00:55 What's the word they use? 00:59 Anyhow, it's all about-- 01:03 Speaking badly of someone else's religion 01:05 but the net result is to criminalize that. 01:08 Yeah, well, we have to understand, 01:12 you know, okay, the ideals are something 01:15 and I mention that, you know, 01:16 like the three pillars just as a brief reminder, 01:21 I think this is important, peace and security. 01:24 We are talking about values, these are the values 01:27 that nations gratify, they signed, right. 01:31 So we have peace and security, justice and development, 01:35 and then human rights. 01:37 Now, this is important human rights 01:39 and we mentioned individual liberty, 01:42 personal equality and life indignity. 01:44 Actually if you take the piece, the component, 01:48 individual liberty, you can even divide it 01:52 subdivide into three for example-- 01:54 But this initiative doesn't seem to tally very well 01:57 with any of those pieces. 01:59 But wait, something is here individual-- 02:02 what do you-- one would like to achieve 02:04 basically is freedom from want, freedom form-- 02:08 Oh, this is Roosevelt, you're talking about that? 02:10 Freedom from fear. 02:12 Was is it five? 02:13 But remember this was an international conversation. 02:17 Others gave input to this, freedom from want, 02:20 freedom from fear 02:22 and, you know, freedom to live in dignity, again. 02:25 But here is the thing though, the U.N. is-- 02:29 So the values, these are the values 02:31 at least theoretically that everybody embraces. 02:34 That's why they signed. 02:36 Now, it doesn't mean that because nations have signed, 02:41 you know, like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 02:44 it doesn't mean that necessarily 02:46 you will not have forces that resist aspects of that-- 02:53 I mean, of that Universal Declaration of Human Rights 02:55 and completely this is what you are talking about. 02:58 Well, this went beyond just discussion 03:00 and nation's contradicting 03:04 their previously agreed compact with the U.N. 03:08 This something that's even gotten 03:10 past first base at the U.N. which seems to me 03:12 there's a contradiction to its own principles. 03:14 Well, again this is where we have to be 03:17 extremely careful because we-- 03:20 there are okay, they are organizations of the U.N. 03:25 because our focus today is on religious liberty 03:28 and you mentioned the case defamation of religion. 03:31 There are some nations who-- 03:34 Actually, blasphemy is mentioned. 03:36 Blasphemy laws that uphold 03:37 these blasphemy laws and so forth. 03:40 I mean, totally contrary 03:41 to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 03:44 Again what you mentioned earlier 03:47 about the okay, its clear-- 03:52 Universal article 18 03:56 talks about the right to change ones religion. 03:59 You have nations at the U.N. like the organization of these, 04:03 I mean, council that have a difficulty with that clause, 04:08 the freedom to change ones religion. 04:10 Well, they will have a difficulty 04:11 because the Quran specifically prohibits changing religion. 04:15 It's not that simple, I think-- 04:17 Well, you become apostate and then-- 04:20 This is the interpretation. 04:21 Now, I read the Quran. I think-- 04:23 well, no, no, no but-- 04:24 It's quite specific. 04:25 No, no, no, but there are many Muslims 04:27 who interpret that differently. 04:28 So this is why, it is for fairness sake. 04:31 It is easier for me to say "oh, Muslims," 04:34 but that will not be fair to them. 04:36 Absolutely, to practice any religion diverges 04:39 a lot from the foundational writings-- 04:43 This is human reality. And Islam is not, true. 04:45 And Islam is not a monolithic religion. 04:47 You have-- Absolutely not. 04:48 and it's worth saying to our viewers 04:50 because many people fail to see that point. 04:52 And because of that the fact, you see for me it's important 04:56 that we have intellectual and spiritual honesty that is, 05:00 you know, I can disagree with Muslims 05:03 on many counts but to just say they-- 05:08 That all Muslims, you know, prohibit 05:11 or adhere to this so called-- 05:13 No, no, all I said was the Quran. 05:14 Yeah, I understand. 05:16 What limits their options 05:18 is that this comes straight from the holy writings. 05:20 Yeah, but think about how many, you know, again for me as an-- 05:24 I mean, academic, I'm very careful 05:27 because people use the Bible 05:28 with how many different interpretation the same Bible. 05:31 So the same thing happened with Muslims 05:33 and I think we ought to be fair to them, 05:36 even if we disagree at least fair with that principle. 05:39 Oh, I'm just stating a fact 05:41 that's, even some national Muslim countries 05:47 their national policy is determined 05:50 by the Quran in that regard. 05:52 Saudi Arabia in particular that's-- 05:54 But, all I say-- 05:55 You think its prejudice at large? 05:57 It's that they're under Wahabism 05:59 which is fundamentalism and the Quran says this, 06:01 therefore your head will leave you 06:04 before you leave the Church. 06:05 But not as what you have said by the way, you mentioned 06:09 one branche of Islam, Wahabism-- 06:10 Yes, very extreme literal-- Well, there are other branches. 06:13 So, in other words I will not-- 06:17 How do you say that, limit Islam to one branch so-- 06:20 Oh, that's a good point. Absolutely. 06:21 That is just my point to say that-- 06:23 And you and I would not wanted to be limited 06:26 by the Roman Catholic description of Christianity 06:30 which is gaining a lot of currency 06:32 even as we record this, 06:33 you know, Washington is convulsed 06:35 with the romance with what they think 06:38 is the leader of Christianity, is not. 06:39 So, this is, this is the reason why 06:42 I think it's very important, you know, 06:44 like to have an approach with intellectual honesty. 06:46 Meaning I disagree with this or that religion 06:50 but the fact though 06:52 is that there are so many different interpretation 06:54 of that religion in Muslims themselves are, 06:58 you know, are making that case now. 07:00 To our point some Muslims at the U.N. tried to, 07:06 you know, like resist-- 07:08 So was not a monolithic call for this? 07:10 Yes, exactly instead all was in coalitions 07:13 but there are nations who are-- 07:15 and again, you see this is so far from us 07:19 because here we talk about separation of church and state 07:23 but in some Muslim countries Islam is a state religion, 07:26 you know, just for the fact-- 07:28 I back this up for a number of reasons 07:30 but I remember when this was first floated at the U.N. 07:34 and then got to get my timeline right. 07:38 It obviously it's not disconnected 07:40 from the Salman Rushdie experience 07:42 which I think came from first. 07:44 But at that time even some of the Christian leaders, 07:49 pretty much affirmed what Islam was saying 07:51 that this was a blasphemy 07:53 and that they were not keen on it. 07:55 They just didn't like the way it was being adjudicated. 07:59 So, we got to be careful 08:00 that it may gain attraction in the U.N. 08:02 because of hardcore Islamic, not general Islamic thought 08:08 but it could easily be picked up by Christianity 08:10 because in the Middle Ages Christianity thought the same 08:13 and we've got to fight this tendency, 08:15 that's really what I was fishing for. 08:17 And this is why religious freedom is so important, 08:19 once, you know, once again that every person, 08:23 not just people group minorities 08:25 but every person has this God given right, 08:29 right, to choose to believe or not to believe. 08:31 We have to keep repeating that over and over, absolutely. 08:34 It sounds so basic and so foundational 08:38 but if there is a state religion imposing religion 08:41 whether Islam or Christianity or Buddhism 08:44 or, you know, what has happened in some country, 08:47 Buddhist country and so forth 08:49 we seem so contradictory to mainstream Buddhism. 08:52 Well, we talk to John Graz, 08:53 you know, since we got onto Islam 08:55 and that's troubling the world with terrorists and so on 08:58 which drives some aspects of it. 09:00 But, you know, I remember we were in Sri Lanka 09:04 which is a large Buddhist-- 09:06 I think they're almost a majority 09:08 although they were in a civil war with Hinduism. 09:11 But we met with the Buddhist leaders 09:13 and they were promoting a law that had actually being passed 09:16 and dumped back by their Supreme Court 09:19 and then was being put forward again, 09:21 putting a death penalty for conversion. 09:24 So, religious prejudice and even extreme measures 09:29 as extremists is requiring a life if you want to change. 09:34 You know, there are not problems of any one religion 09:37 and what they were saying there, 09:38 death penalty for not just for the person converting, 09:42 if you enticed someone to conversion. 09:44 Yeah, correct. And enticing could just be... 09:49 Making Christianity in this case attractive 09:52 so that the person would come 09:53 and they'd say "Oh, you put an enticement." 09:55 There life was gonna be better, 09:56 they would gonna go to school in a Christian education. 09:59 But again, again what is the problem here 10:02 only a God given prerogative 10:05 to be the God of the conscience of the people. 10:08 Now, human being wants to take that prerogative 10:10 and control and dominate and that's the root 10:13 and cause of all this. 10:15 Now, as we speak today there's a six Indian state 10:20 that is debating their parliament about 10:24 anti-conversion law as we speak. 10:27 Now, it happened in Sri Lanka as you mentioned-- 10:29 Which is that state in India? 10:31 I could, oh, I-- 10:34 Was it in the north or the south? 10:36 Well, they are six states, six. 10:39 I don't recall at the moment of the states, 10:43 I could not, I don't want to give, 10:45 you know, a misinformation about that 10:46 but and this is in the, I mean, on the web even-- 10:50 So, I know it's an issue of that. 10:52 But my point is though, 10:55 again when a state chooses religion 10:58 whatever that state is. 11:00 Now, here and in Europe, France, 11:02 you know, laicite, separation of church and state. 11:05 In America, separation of church and state 11:07 and so far, so on. 11:09 Even though here too, some religious people-- 11:11 Well, laicite is a little more rigorous 11:13 than separation of church and state. 11:14 It's sort of an antagonistic separation I think so. 11:18 Not necessarily, you have at least 11:21 five different kinds of laicite. 11:23 Maybe we need to have another program 11:24 we're getting close to the end. 11:26 No, but it is extremely important 11:28 that we realize what is at stake here is, 11:34 again human dignity, human freedom 11:37 and human beings cannot be controlled, 11:41 monitored, or tried to coarse them 11:44 into fitting a certain setting. 11:49 Why, because every human being 11:52 is created again in God's image and with infinite dignity. 11:59 As I was thinking of a summation 12:01 I was about to refer to a song that I sang as a child 12:04 but in reality I most recently sang it with my children. 12:10 The song is "Jesus loves the little children, 12:14 black and yellow, red and white, 12:17 all our precious in His sight." 12:20 That's a elementary truth 12:22 that it is all too easy to forget 12:23 when we are talking about religious liberty. 12:26 Religious liberty is not a western construct, 12:29 it is not an American province. 12:32 Religious liberty if it's to mean anything, 12:36 it has to have the meaning that Jesus gave to it, 12:39 this universality of creatures of a creative God 12:44 all are precious in His sight 12:48 and religious liberty as we administrate 12:51 of course has little side roads on constitutions and history 12:55 but its central highway is the great gospel of truth 12:59 and the fact that we are precious in His sight. 13:04 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Stead. |
Revised 2015-10-08