Welcome back to
"Liberty Insider."
00:00:03.30\00:00:04.93
Before the break
with guest, Dr. Diop,
00:00:04.97\00:00:08.27
we were talking
about the United Nations
00:00:08.30\00:00:09.74
which you know very
well because you have been
00:00:09.77\00:00:11.64
the liaison for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:00:11.67\00:00:14.71
before your
present responsibilities
00:00:14.74\00:00:16.85
hitting up our public
affairs and religious liberty.
00:00:16.88\00:00:19.48
I want to ask you a
question, you speak about the--
00:00:19.51\00:00:24.75
Different aspects of
the U.N. to work for dignity
00:00:24.79\00:00:29.36
and freedom for
all peoples and so on
00:00:29.39\00:00:31.93
but something
happened recently at the U.N.
00:00:31.96\00:00:34.10
that I think goes against
00:00:34.13\00:00:35.83
many ways its
foundational principles.
00:00:35.86\00:00:38.77
A coalition of nations,
many form the Middle East
00:00:38.80\00:00:42.27
but not only the
Middle East have been pushing
00:00:42.30\00:00:45.17
and have even gotten
some advance resolutions
00:00:45.21\00:00:47.38
through restricting--
00:00:47.41\00:00:51.21
Defamation of
religion or defining--
00:00:51.25\00:00:55.68
What's the word they use?
00:00:55.72\00:00:59.15
Anyhow, it's all about--
00:00:59.19\00:01:02.99
Speaking badly of
someone else's religion
00:01:03.02\00:01:05.79
but the net result
is to criminalize that.
00:01:05.83\00:01:08.46
Yeah, well, we
have to understand,
00:01:08.50\00:01:11.97
you know, okay, the
ideals are something
00:01:12.00\00:01:15.40
and I mention that, you know,
00:01:15.44\00:01:16.94
like the three pillars
just as a brief reminder,
00:01:16.97\00:01:21.68
I think this is
important, peace and security.
00:01:21.71\00:01:24.91
We are talking about
values, these are the values
00:01:24.95\00:01:27.48
that nations
gratify, they signed, right.
00:01:27.52\00:01:31.02
So we have peace and security,
justice and development,
00:01:31.05\00:01:35.89
and then human rights.
00:01:35.92\00:01:37.26
Now, this is
important human rights
00:01:37.29\00:01:39.23
and we mentioned
individual liberty,
00:01:39.26\00:01:42.20
personal equality
and life indignity.
00:01:42.23\00:01:44.43
Actually if you take
the piece, the component,
00:01:44.47\00:01:48.17
individual liberty,
you can even divide it
00:01:48.20\00:01:52.14
subdivide into
three for example--
00:01:52.17\00:01:54.61
But this initiative
doesn't seem to tally very well
00:01:54.64\00:01:57.61
with any of those pieces.
00:01:57.65\00:01:58.98
But wait, something
is here individual--
00:01:59.01\00:02:02.65
what do you-- one
would like to achieve
00:02:02.68\00:02:04.85
basically is freedom
from want, freedom form--
00:02:04.89\00:02:08.12
Oh, this is Roosevelt,
you're talking about that?
00:02:08.16\00:02:10.43
Freedom from fear.
00:02:10.46\00:02:12.19
Was is it five?
00:02:12.23\00:02:13.86
But remember this was an
international conversation.
00:02:13.90\00:02:17.13
Others gave input to
this, freedom from want,
00:02:17.17\00:02:20.37
freedom from fear
00:02:20.40\00:02:22.20
and, you know, freedom
to live in dignity, again.
00:02:22.24\00:02:25.64
But here is the
thing though, the U.N. is--
00:02:25.67\00:02:29.64
So the values,
these are the values
00:02:29.68\00:02:31.78
at least theoretically
that everybody embraces.
00:02:31.81\00:02:34.58
That's why they signed.
00:02:34.62\00:02:36.25
Now, it doesn't mean that
because nations have signed,
00:02:36.28\00:02:41.26
you know, like the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights,
00:02:41.29\00:02:44.43
it doesn't mean that necessarily
00:02:44.46\00:02:46.86
you will not have forces
that resist aspects of that--
00:02:46.90\00:02:53.37
I mean, of that Universal
Declaration of Human Rights
00:02:53.40\00:02:55.64
and completely this is
what you are talking about.
00:02:55.67\00:02:58.01
Well, this went
beyond just discussion
00:02:58.04\00:03:00.58
and nation's contradicting
00:03:00.61\00:03:04.21
their previously
agreed compact with the U.N.
00:03:04.25\00:03:08.05
This something
that's even gotten
00:03:08.08\00:03:10.15
past first base at
the U.N. which seems to me
00:03:10.19\00:03:12.25
there's a contradiction
to its own principles.
00:03:12.29\00:03:14.26
Well, again this
is where we have to be
00:03:14.29\00:03:17.29
extremely careful because we--
00:03:17.33\00:03:20.60
there are okay, they are
organizations of the U.N.
00:03:20.63\00:03:25.13
because our focus
today is on religious liberty
00:03:25.17\00:03:28.70
and you mentioned the
case defamation of religion.
00:03:28.74\00:03:31.54
There are some nations who--
00:03:31.57\00:03:34.64
Actually,
blasphemy is mentioned.
00:03:34.68\00:03:36.08
Blasphemy laws that uphold
00:03:36.11\00:03:37.85
these blasphemy
laws and so forth.
00:03:37.88\00:03:40.15
I mean, totally contrary
00:03:40.18\00:03:41.52
to the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights.
00:03:41.55\00:03:44.49
Again what you mentioned earlier
00:03:44.52\00:03:47.52
about the okay, its clear--
00:03:47.56\00:03:52.39
Universal article 18
00:03:52.43\00:03:56.06
talks about the right
to change ones religion.
00:03:56.10\00:03:59.63
You have nations at the U.N.
like the organization of these,
00:03:59.67\00:04:03.04
I mean, council that have a
difficulty with that clause,
00:04:03.07\00:04:08.58
the freedom to
change ones religion.
00:04:08.61\00:04:10.31
Well, they will
have a difficulty
00:04:10.35\00:04:11.68
because the Quran specifically
prohibits changing religion.
00:04:11.71\00:04:15.88
It's not that simple, I think--
00:04:15.92\00:04:17.69
Well, you become
apostate and then--
00:04:17.72\00:04:20.06
This is the interpretation.
00:04:20.09\00:04:21.72
Now, I read the Quran. I think--
00:04:21.76\00:04:23.12
well, no, no, no but--
00:04:23.16\00:04:24.49
It's quite specific.
00:04:24.53\00:04:25.86
No, no, no, but
there are many Muslims
00:04:25.89\00:04:27.30
who interpret that differently.
00:04:27.33\00:04:28.70
So this is why, it
is for fairness sake.
00:04:28.73\00:04:31.63
It is easier for me
to say "oh, Muslims,"
00:04:31.67\00:04:34.67
but that will
not be fair to them.
00:04:34.70\00:04:36.27
Absolutely, to
practice any religion diverges
00:04:36.30\00:04:39.84
a lot from the
foundational writings--
00:04:39.87\00:04:43.28
This is human reality.
And Islam is not, true.
00:04:43.31\00:04:45.55
And Islam is not a
monolithic religion.
00:04:45.58\00:04:47.52
You have-- Absolutely not.
00:04:47.55\00:04:48.88
and it's worth
saying to our viewers
00:04:48.92\00:04:50.79
because many people
fail to see that point.
00:04:50.82\00:04:52.69
And because of that the fact,
you see for me it's important
00:04:52.72\00:04:56.06
that we have intellectual
and spiritual honesty that is,
00:04:56.09\00:05:00.10
you know, I can
disagree with Muslims
00:05:00.13\00:05:03.63
on many counts
but to just say they--
00:05:03.67\00:05:08.10
That all Muslims,
you know, prohibit
00:05:08.14\00:05:11.14
or adhere to this so called--
00:05:11.17\00:05:13.58
No, no, all I
said was the Quran.
00:05:13.61\00:05:14.94
Yeah, I understand.
00:05:14.98\00:05:16.34
What limits their options
00:05:16.38\00:05:17.98
is that this comes
straight from the holy writings.
00:05:18.01\00:05:20.45
Yeah, but think about how many,
you know, again for me as an--
00:05:20.48\00:05:24.89
I mean,
academic, I'm very careful
00:05:24.92\00:05:27.06
because people use the Bible
00:05:27.09\00:05:28.92
with how many different
interpretation the same Bible.
00:05:28.96\00:05:31.79
So the same thing
happened with Muslims
00:05:31.83\00:05:33.80
and I think we
ought to be fair to them,
00:05:33.83\00:05:36.67
even if we disagree at
least fair with that principle.
00:05:36.70\00:05:39.73
Oh, I'm just stating a fact
00:05:39.77\00:05:41.84
that's, even some
national Muslim countries
00:05:41.87\00:05:47.91
their national
policy is determined
00:05:47.94\00:05:49.98
by the Quran in that regard.
00:05:50.01\00:05:52.31
Saudi Arabia in
particular that's--
00:05:52.35\00:05:54.22
But, all I say--
00:05:54.25\00:05:55.58
You think its
prejudice at large?
00:05:55.62\00:05:57.05
It's that they're under Wahabism
00:05:57.09\00:05:59.75
which is fundamentalism
and the Quran says this,
00:05:59.79\00:06:01.92
therefore your
head will leave you
00:06:01.96\00:06:04.46
before you leave the Church.
00:06:04.49\00:06:05.83
But not as what you have
said by the way, you mentioned
00:06:05.86\00:06:08.96
one branche of Islam, Wahabism--
00:06:09.00\00:06:10.33
Yes, very extreme literal--
Well, there are other branches.
00:06:10.37\00:06:13.90
So, in other words I will not--
00:06:13.94\00:06:17.94
How do you say that,
limit Islam to one branch so--
00:06:17.97\00:06:20.51
Oh, that's a good
point. Absolutely.
00:06:20.54\00:06:21.88
That is just my
point to say that--
00:06:21.91\00:06:23.65
And you and I would
not wanted to be limited
00:06:23.68\00:06:26.82
by the Roman Catholic
description of Christianity
00:06:26.85\00:06:30.29
which is gaining
a lot of currency
00:06:30.32\00:06:32.05
even as we record this,
00:06:32.09\00:06:33.59
you know,
Washington is convulsed
00:06:33.62\00:06:35.12
with the romance
with what they think
00:06:35.16\00:06:38.13
is the leader of
Christianity, is not.
00:06:38.16\00:06:39.89
So, this is,
this is the reason why
00:06:39.93\00:06:42.16
I think it's very
important, you know,
00:06:42.20\00:06:44.23
like to have an approach
with intellectual honesty.
00:06:44.27\00:06:46.60
Meaning I disagree
with this or that religion
00:06:46.63\00:06:50.11
but the fact though
00:06:50.14\00:06:52.57
is that there are so
many different interpretation
00:06:52.61\00:06:54.68
of that religion in
Muslims themselves are,
00:06:54.71\00:06:58.41
you know, are
making that case now.
00:06:58.45\00:07:00.52
To our point some
Muslims at the U.N. tried to,
00:07:00.55\00:07:06.76
you know, like resist--
00:07:06.79\00:07:08.96
So was not a
monolithic call for this?
00:07:08.99\00:07:10.53
Yes, exactly instead
all was in coalitions
00:07:10.56\00:07:13.19
but there are nations who are--
00:07:13.23\00:07:15.76
and again, you see
this is so far from us
00:07:15.80\00:07:19.13
because here we talk about
separation of church and state
00:07:19.17\00:07:23.20
but in some Muslim countries
Islam is a state religion,
00:07:23.24\00:07:26.91
you know, just for the fact--
00:07:26.94\00:07:28.28
I back this up for
a number of reasons
00:07:28.31\00:07:30.25
but I remember when this
was first floated at the U.N.
00:07:30.28\00:07:34.28
and then got to
get my timeline right.
00:07:34.32\00:07:38.32
It obviously
it's not disconnected
00:07:38.35\00:07:40.09
from the Salman
Rushdie experience
00:07:40.12\00:07:42.66
which I think came from first.
00:07:42.69\00:07:44.33
But at that time even
some of the Christian leaders,
00:07:44.36\00:07:49.03
pretty much affirmed
what Islam was saying
00:07:49.06\00:07:51.93
that this was a blasphemy
00:07:51.97\00:07:53.80
and that they
were not keen on it.
00:07:53.84\00:07:55.47
They just didn't like the
way it was being adjudicated.
00:07:55.50\00:07:59.07
So, we got to be careful
00:07:59.11\00:08:00.44
that it may gain
attraction in the U.N.
00:08:00.48\00:08:02.84
because of hardcore Islamic,
not general Islamic thought
00:08:02.88\00:08:08.68
but it could easily be
picked up by Christianity
00:08:08.72\00:08:10.85
because in the Middle Ages
Christianity thought the same
00:08:10.89\00:08:13.86
and we've got to
fight this tendency,
00:08:13.89\00:08:15.69
that's really
what I was fishing for.
00:08:15.72\00:08:17.06
And this is why religious
freedom is so important,
00:08:17.09\00:08:19.59
once, you know, once
again that every person,
00:08:19.63\00:08:23.57
not just people group minorities
00:08:23.60\00:08:25.40
but every person has
this God given right,
00:08:25.43\00:08:29.54
right, to choose to
believe or not to believe.
00:08:29.57\00:08:31.91
We have to keep repeating
that over and over, absolutely.
00:08:31.94\00:08:34.88
It sounds so basic
and so foundational
00:08:34.91\00:08:37.98
but if there is a state
religion imposing religion
00:08:38.01\00:08:41.55
whether Islam or
Christianity or Buddhism
00:08:41.58\00:08:44.32
or, you know, what has
happened in some country,
00:08:44.35\00:08:47.42
Buddhist country and so forth
00:08:47.46\00:08:49.66
we seem so contradictory
to mainstream Buddhism.
00:08:49.69\00:08:52.43
Well, we talk to John Graz,
00:08:52.46\00:08:53.80
you know, since
we got onto Islam
00:08:53.83\00:08:55.80
and that's troubling the
world with terrorists and so on
00:08:55.83\00:08:58.27
which drives some aspects of it.
00:08:58.30\00:09:00.94
But, you know, I
remember we were in Sri Lanka
00:09:00.97\00:09:04.34
which is a large Buddhist--
00:09:04.37\00:09:06.84
I think they're
almost a majority
00:09:06.88\00:09:08.21
although they were in a
civil war with Hinduism.
00:09:08.24\00:09:11.91
But we met with
the Buddhist leaders
00:09:11.95\00:09:13.31
and they were promoting a law
that had actually being passed
00:09:13.35\00:09:16.45
and dumped back by
their Supreme Court
00:09:16.48\00:09:19.15
and then was
being put forward again,
00:09:19.19\00:09:21.56
putting a death
penalty for conversion.
00:09:21.59\00:09:24.03
So, religious prejudice
and even extreme measures
00:09:24.06\00:09:29.50
as extremists is requiring
a life if you want to change.
00:09:29.53\00:09:34.20
You know, there are not
problems of any one religion
00:09:34.24\00:09:37.34
and what they were saying there,
00:09:37.37\00:09:38.71
death penalty for not
just for the person converting,
00:09:38.74\00:09:42.84
if you enticed
someone to conversion.
00:09:42.88\00:09:44.65
Yeah, correct. And
enticing could just be...
00:09:44.68\00:09:49.62
Making Christianity
in this case attractive
00:09:49.65\00:09:52.39
so that the person would come
00:09:52.42\00:09:53.76
and they'd say "Oh,
you put an enticement."
00:09:53.79\00:09:55.39
There life was gonna be better,
00:09:55.42\00:09:56.76
they would gonna go to
school in a Christian education.
00:09:56.79\00:09:59.06
But again, again
what is the problem here
00:09:59.09\00:10:02.70
only a God given prerogative
00:10:02.73\00:10:05.83
to be the God of the
conscience of the people.
00:10:05.87\00:10:08.47
Now, human being wants
to take that prerogative
00:10:08.50\00:10:10.91
and control and
dominate and that's the root
00:10:10.94\00:10:13.88
and cause of all this.
00:10:13.91\00:10:15.38
Now, as we speak today
there's a six Indian state
00:10:15.41\00:10:20.52
that is debating
their parliament about
00:10:20.55\00:10:24.92
anti-conversion law as we speak.
00:10:24.95\00:10:27.56
Now, it happened in Sri
Lanka as you mentioned--
00:10:27.59\00:10:29.96
Which is that state in India?
00:10:29.99\00:10:31.33
I could, oh, I--
00:10:31.36\00:10:34.16
Was it in the
north or the south?
00:10:34.20\00:10:35.96
Well, they are six states, six.
00:10:36.00\00:10:39.67
I don't recall at
the moment of the states,
00:10:39.70\00:10:43.17
I could not, I
don't want to give,
00:10:43.20\00:10:45.27
you know, a
misinformation about that
00:10:45.31\00:10:46.84
but and this is in the,
I mean, on the web even--
00:10:46.88\00:10:50.95
So, I know it's
an issue of that.
00:10:50.98\00:10:52.45
But my point is though,
00:10:52.48\00:10:55.55
again when a
state chooses religion
00:10:55.58\00:10:58.59
whatever that state is.
00:10:58.62\00:11:00.32
Now, here and in Europe, France,
00:11:00.36\00:11:02.52
you know, laicite,
separation of church and state.
00:11:02.56\00:11:05.59
In America,
separation of church and state
00:11:05.63\00:11:07.63
and so far, so on.
00:11:07.66\00:11:09.00
Even though here too,
some religious people--
00:11:09.03\00:11:11.10
Well, laicite is a
little more rigorous
00:11:11.13\00:11:13.17
than separation
of church and state.
00:11:13.20\00:11:14.90
It's sort of an antagonistic
separation I think so.
00:11:14.94\00:11:18.84
Not necessarily,
you have at least
00:11:18.87\00:11:21.01
five different kinds of laicite.
00:11:21.04\00:11:23.51
Maybe we need to
have another program
00:11:23.55\00:11:24.88
we're getting close to the end.
00:11:24.91\00:11:26.48
No, but it is
extremely important
00:11:26.51\00:11:28.68
that we realize
what is at stake here is,
00:11:28.72\00:11:34.59
again human
dignity, human freedom
00:11:34.62\00:11:37.89
and human beings
cannot be controlled,
00:11:37.93\00:11:41.10
monitored, or
tried to coarse them
00:11:41.13\00:11:44.30
into fitting a certain setting.
00:11:44.33\00:11:49.80
Why, because every human being
00:11:49.84\00:11:52.44
is created again in God's
image and with infinite dignity.
00:11:52.47\00:11:59.38
As I was thinking of a summation
00:11:59.41\00:12:01.05
I was about to refer to a
song that I sang as a child
00:12:01.08\00:12:04.85
but in reality I most recently
sang it with my children.
00:12:04.89\00:12:10.13
The song is "Jesus
loves the little children,
00:12:10.16\00:12:14.60
black and yellow, red and white,
00:12:14.63\00:12:17.63
all our precious in His sight."
00:12:17.67\00:12:20.20
That's a elementary truth
00:12:20.24\00:12:22.10
that it is all
too easy to forget
00:12:22.14\00:12:23.61
when we are talking
about religious liberty.
00:12:23.64\00:12:26.21
Religious liberty is
not a western construct,
00:12:26.24\00:12:29.44
it is not an American province.
00:12:29.48\00:12:32.85
Religious liberty if
it's to mean anything,
00:12:32.88\00:12:36.25
it has to have the
meaning that Jesus gave to it,
00:12:36.28\00:12:39.45
this universality of
creatures of a creative God
00:12:39.49\00:12:44.33
all are precious in His sight
00:12:44.36\00:12:47.96
and religious
liberty as we administrate
00:12:48.00\00:12:51.43
of course has little side roads
on constitutions and history
00:12:51.47\00:12:55.67
but its central highway
is the great gospel of truth
00:12:55.70\00:12:59.84
and the fact that we
are precious in His sight.
00:12:59.87\00:13:04.11
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Stead.
00:13:04.15\00:13:08.08