Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000303B
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00:04 Welcome back to the "Liberty Insider."
00:05 Before the break with guest Dr.Ganoune Diop 00:08 we are were talking about religious liberty, Ganoune. 00:10 Correct. 00:11 It means many things to many people 00:13 but it root you and I agree that that it's biblical, 00:16 it's God given and whether you are 00:18 talking about constitutional, 00:20 historical issues and we got into some history. 00:23 We should never forget that it comes from God. 00:26 Yes. Yes. 00:28 Thomas Jefferson said "We are in dab 00:30 with this from the Creator." 00:32 So rooted facility and I think we mention 00:36 that earlier that's why I was talking about the foundation, 00:39 is something that is connected to God. 00:43 Because it is about freedom first of all because God-- 00:46 actually in an absolute sense only God is free. 00:50 But a free God who is love as I mentioned 00:53 created human beings in His image 00:55 and therefore capable of responding. 00:59 But another dimension when it comes to human being, 01:03 religious freedom is connected to the most intimate freedom 01:07 that is freedom of conscience without conscience-- 01:11 Well, you made an interesting statement. 01:12 Better to hear that. 01:14 And the God is free, in absolute sense. 01:16 Well-- 01:18 It is true if you think about it, 01:20 our freedom is constrained and God say it, 01:23 you disobey, you use your choice to disobey, 01:26 your freedom is gonna be 01:28 constrained by the consequences. 01:29 True. But I was-- 01:30 So we do have practical constrains. 01:32 But God clearly is not compelling our conscience 01:36 He is giving us the right to choose. 01:38 Good or evil, to choose life or death, 01:40 to choose Him or the other force. 01:44 Yeah, very true. 01:46 But there is something even beautiful about the fact 01:48 that only God is free and you see, 01:52 I'm thinking about freedom here is freedom from need. 01:56 Only God is self existent, self sufficient, we breathe-- 02:01 Says and even we live and move in-- 02:04 You know, so we are dependent beings. 02:07 I need to drink, I need to eat. 02:09 But God is different from-- 02:11 He created everything out of nothing. 02:14 You see, again so this absolute freedom 02:17 is the prerogative of God. 02:20 However, this God who is free doesn't hold 02:24 that freedom against us. 02:26 The opposite because His love, 02:29 He created human beings in His image 02:31 so that we can participate in His freedom. 02:34 I mean, we are dependent being 02:35 and that we would remain so anyway. 02:38 But there is this conscience which is sacred 02:44 the sanctity of human conscience 02:46 that God has created that makes us 02:49 who we are really as human being. 02:52 Who we are? 02:54 And this is so important 02:57 that the conscience is so intimate, 03:00 is so sacred that it should not be violated. 03:03 And this is where religious liberty 03:05 comes into the picture again. 03:08 And true religious liberty 03:10 educates the conscience I think. 03:12 Well, now this is very important 03:15 in a sense that, you know, you are talking about 03:18 the government and so forth. 03:20 Government do not give us religious freedom 03:22 as a favour, they should protect-- 03:24 They acknowledge. Yes. They acknowledge. 03:27 They can't give or take it away forever. 03:28 Yes, exactly. 03:30 They are, the government actually mandate 03:33 is to protect this. 03:35 Why, because once religious liberty 03:38 is taken away from a person it is 03:41 as if we are actually taking 03:43 the conscience of that person and therefore, 03:46 what distinguishes that person it is that important. 03:52 And something beautiful here, now okay this is-- 03:56 we talk about God as free, 03:59 the only one who is absolutely free. 04:01 Human beings participate in that freedom out of love 04:05 because God did not create robots, you know, 04:08 so that we can just blindly obey without. 04:11 No, He wants fellowship. He wants relationship. 04:14 He want people He can communicate 04:16 and this is why we are people who communicate, you know. 04:19 We are relational beings, 04:22 like God is a relational being himself. 04:23 We're getting into bigger issues. 04:25 Are we integrated or self sufficient 04:29 and we clearly are not. 04:31 But the romantic concept 04:35 that I think came from the renaissance 04:39 and beyond that was sort of man as the individual. 04:43 But that's really not the concept 04:44 of religious liberty per say isn't. 04:46 We find fulfilment in worship with God 04:50 and the larger community. 04:51 Well, in essence we are relational being 04:55 from when we are born, I mean, to think about 04:57 a fragile newborn baby totally dependent. 05:01 If that baby is left alone that baby 05:03 will not survive, you see what I'm saying. 05:05 So therefore, we are relational being. 05:09 This is the reason why actually religious liberty 05:12 is not just-- you see, may be 05:15 before even I say that it is important for us 05:18 to realise only humans will like to isolate ourselves 05:23 thinking we're the centre of the world. 05:25 Centre of the world meaning the individual, okay. 05:27 My freedom and freedom mean-- in that case freedom 05:32 means our arbitrariness to do 05:34 what I like whenever non restriction. 05:38 That is illusion because freedom 05:41 comes with responsibility precisely 05:43 because we are relational beings. 05:45 How do we protect then. 05:46 I agree with you but, you know, 05:48 the tendency of our modern western world 05:52 and I'll use it a tough world is really to head 05:54 towards a fascist structure 05:57 where you are part of a machinery of society 06:00 and you are irrevocably linked, 06:03 inextricably linked of all of its functions 06:05 and you are only a cog in the machinery of it. 06:10 Philosophically we look back to God 06:12 and the way of creation that He has made 06:14 and we can't separate ourselves from that. 06:16 Isn't there a danger that one will substitute 06:19 for the other and this case mans false view of security 06:23 and you think you have choice but you rally are limited 06:27 by the structure of society. 06:29 But again, I don't believe in determinism 06:31 in that sense you see, because and probably 06:35 what protect us is human dignity. 06:38 Again, human dignity consider the individual 06:42 because, yes, every person is valuable before God, 06:46 every person has infinite value and dignity, that's one. 06:50 But at the same time we are relational being, 06:53 meaning we are created for fellowship, 06:56 we are created to live together and living together 07:00 of course requires some social regulations. 07:05 And it seems to me that 07:06 implicit in the story of the fall. 07:11 Remember Adam and Eve disobeyed God 07:13 but God came looking for them to socialise with them 07:17 in the call of the evening and when He found 07:20 that they had disobeyed Him, He didn't cast them off 07:22 in fact, He did a very charitable thing. 07:24 Remember He covered them with animal skins. 07:26 But again that is because God is love and you see-- 07:28 I think it illustrates the community aspect, 07:30 the socialisation and also the, you know, 07:34 it's not like you disobey and God cast you off. 07:36 You exercise your religious liberty, 07:38 there is a consequence if you do it wrongly, 07:41 but God is still there to support you. 07:44 Again and this is connected 07:46 to the foundations for religious liberty. 07:49 Meaning thought, conscience 07:53 and of course the power to decide. 07:55 Because if not then we are not human being 07:58 and this is the reason why these are to be protected. 08:01 If the individual liberty is like a sacred task 08:06 actually we could go 08:07 take a look at the institutions-- 08:09 I mean, the constitutions as we-- 08:12 We might do that in another program. 08:14 Yes. 08:15 But several constitution 08:17 I mean, very clearly state that 08:22 religious liberty is actually a principle. 08:26 It's not just, you see, this is important 08:31 because people rank values, you know. 08:35 But religious liberty because it is 08:37 grounded on human dignity 08:38 which is a principle sets it aside. 08:41 And no wonder if you take the case of America 08:44 and probably this is one of the reason 08:46 why this nation has such a fascinating history. 08:51 Religious liberty is the primordial freedom 08:55 or the first freedom here in this nation. 08:58 Now, the question is, it has been challenged, 09:02 misinterpreted may be miss-- you know, 09:05 there was a misperception of what religious liberty 09:08 really is but still it is part of the fabric 09:13 of this nation. 09:14 People came here because they wanted to be free, 09:17 create a society. 09:18 Well, some of them correct, create a society 09:22 whereby they could choose to freely worship, 09:26 to freely believe or not believe, you know, so-- 09:29 You know, you and I both know American history 09:31 and we need to separate sometimes the ideal 09:34 from the reality. 09:35 Correct. 09:36 What I think is the unique thing 09:38 about United States. 09:39 Not so much that the narrative was always 09:41 consistent with the ideal but that the ideal was 09:44 always been there and it's written 09:45 into the constitution. 09:47 And religious liberty is a prime value. 09:50 It wasn't always the prime directive 09:52 on the settlement. 09:53 Correct. 09:54 What I think is they derived it from Europe 09:57 and on this program many people heard 09:59 they go about the civil war in England 10:02 where religion became that prime thing. 10:04 I think that's when it was planted here might so. 10:07 Well, the history of this nation 10:11 I think definitely is 10:12 and exclusively woven with this idea 10:15 for search for freedom and it is not by chance 10:20 that one of the first or the primordial freedom 10:24 was precisely religious liberty. 10:27 Absolutely. Oh, no. 10:28 No, it was very calculated. 10:30 That has to-- So back to the principle. 10:32 What could say to set summation? 10:35 Religious liberty, how would you express it 10:37 just in few words for today not historical or contrary? 10:41 Religious liberty is a God given right 10:45 based on human dignity 10:47 and that is actually a freedom 10:51 that is so intimately linked to every human being 10:56 because it is connected to the most intimate freedom, 10:59 freedom of conscience. 11:00 If I do not have religious liberty 11:03 then I am deprive of being the human being 11:07 I am supposed to be. 11:08 So this is extremely important, 11:10 this is why this freedom has to be protected, 11:13 promoted and adopted by the way. 11:16 Not just through the constitutions 11:21 as a letter but more importantly 11:24 adopted by every nation and every person. 11:29 I have taken some intellectual satisfaction 11:33 in watching the debate between some prominence, 11:36 prominent cynics and those of faith 11:39 and of course the battle argument 11:41 goes backwards and forwards. 11:44 But something that everyone stumbles on 11:46 and the scientist more than most is, 11:48 how do you explain the Big Bang? 11:50 What came first? 11:53 And in some ways it's not a total answer to say 11:56 that God came first. 11:57 There is always the what before God 11:58 but we can't know that. 12:01 But when we talk about religious liberty 12:03 which of course came from God we need to realise 12:05 that it is a prime cause. 12:09 There is nothing more important other than God himself 12:12 because liberty, the principle of free choice 12:17 flowed naturally 12:19 from the Creator to His creature, 12:21 to His creatures, us. 12:24 And if the something that distinguishes us 12:26 from the inanimate objects that whiz through space 12:30 it is that God imparted part of His very character in us 12:34 and it's exemplified through showing choice, 12:37 judgement and of course proven through good choices. 12:42 Proving to worship and acknowledge God, 12:44 our Creator. 12:47 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-10-08