Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
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Before the break
with guest Dr.Ganoune Diop
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we are were talking about
religious liberty, Ganoune.
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Correct.
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It means many
things to many people
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but it root you and I
agree that that it's biblical,
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it's God given
and whether you are
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talking about constitutional,
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historical issues and
we got into some history.
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We should never forget
that it comes from God.
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Yes. Yes.
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Thomas Jefferson
said "We are in dab
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with this from the Creator."
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So rooted facility
and I think we mention
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that earlier that's why I was
talking about the foundation,
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is something that
is connected to God.
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Because it is about freedom
first of all because God--
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actually in an
absolute sense only God is free.
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But a free God who
is love as I mentioned
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created human
beings in His image
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and therefore
capable of responding.
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But another dimension
when it comes to human being,
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religious freedom is connected
to the most intimate freedom
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that is freedom of
conscience without conscience--
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Well, you made an
interesting statement.
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Better to hear that.
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And the God is
free, in absolute sense.
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Well--
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It is true if
you think about it,
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our freedom is
constrained and God say it,
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you disobey, you use
your choice to disobey,
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your freedom is gonna be
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constrained by the consequences.
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True. But I was--
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So we do have
practical constrains.
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But God clearly is not
compelling our conscience
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He is giving us
the right to choose.
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Good or evil, to
choose life or death,
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to choose Him
or the other force.
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Yeah, very true.
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But there is something
even beautiful about the fact
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that only God is
free and you see,
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I'm thinking about freedom
here is freedom from need.
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Only God is self existent,
self sufficient, we breathe--
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Says and even we
live and move in--
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You know, so we
are dependent beings.
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I need to drink, I need to eat.
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But God is different from--
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He created
everything out of nothing.
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You see, again so
this absolute freedom
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is the prerogative of God.
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However, this God
who is free doesn't hold
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that freedom against us.
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The opposite because His love,
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He created human
beings in His image
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so that we can
participate in His freedom.
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I mean, we are dependent being
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and that we
would remain so anyway.
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But there is this
conscience which is sacred
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the sanctity of human conscience
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that God has
created that makes us
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who we are
really as human being.
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Who we are?
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And this is so important
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that the
conscience is so intimate,
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is so sacred that it
should not be violated.
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And this is
where religious liberty
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comes into the picture again.
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And true religious liberty
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educates the conscience I think.
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Well, now this is very important
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in a sense that, you
know, you are talking about
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the government and so forth.
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Government do not
give us religious freedom
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as a favour,
they should protect--
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They acknowledge.
Yes. They acknowledge.
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They can't give or
take it away forever.
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Yes, exactly.
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They are, the
government actually mandate
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is to protect this.
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Why, because
once religious liberty
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is taken away
from a person it is
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as if we are actually taking
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the conscience of
that person and therefore,
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what distinguishes that
person it is that important.
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And something beautiful
here, now okay this is--
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we talk about God as free,
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the only one who
is absolutely free.
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Human beings participate
in that freedom out of love
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because God did not
create robots, you know,
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so that we can just
blindly obey without.
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No, He wants fellowship.
He wants relationship.
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He want people
He can communicate
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and this is why we are people
who communicate, you know.
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We are relational beings,
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like God is a
relational being himself.
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We're getting
into bigger issues.
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Are we integrated
or self sufficient
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and we clearly are not.
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But the romantic concept
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that I think came
from the renaissance
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and beyond that was sort
of man as the individual.
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But that's
really not the concept
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of religious
liberty per say isn't.
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We find fulfilment
in worship with God
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and the larger community.
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Well, in essence we
are relational being
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from when we are
born, I mean, to think about
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a fragile newborn
baby totally dependent.
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If that baby is
left alone that baby
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will not survive,
you see what I'm saying.
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So therefore, we
are relational being.
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This is the reason why
actually religious liberty
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is not just-- you see, may be
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before even I say
that it is important for us
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to realise only humans
will like to isolate ourselves
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thinking we're the
centre of the world.
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Centre of the world
meaning the individual, okay.
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My freedom and freedom
mean-- in that case freedom
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means our arbitrariness to do
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what I like
whenever non restriction.
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That is illusion because freedom
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comes with
responsibility precisely
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because we are
relational beings.
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How do we protect then.
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I agree with you but, you know,
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the tendency of our
modern western world
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and I'll use it a
tough world is really to head
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towards a fascist structure
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where you are part of
a machinery of society
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and you are irrevocably linked,
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inextricably linked
of all of its functions
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and you are only a cog
in the machinery of it.
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Philosophically
we look back to God
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and the way of
creation that He has made
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and we can't
separate ourselves from that.
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Isn't there a danger
that one will substitute
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for the other and this
case mans false view of security
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and you think you have
choice but you rally are limited
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by the structure of society.
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But again, I don't
believe in determinism
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in that sense you
see, because and probably
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what protect us
is human dignity.
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Again, human dignity
consider the individual
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because, yes, every
person is valuable before God,
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every person has infinite
value and dignity, that's one.
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But at the same time
we are relational being,
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meaning we are
created for fellowship,
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we are created to live
together and living together
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of course requires
some social regulations.
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And it seems to me that
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implicit in the
story of the fall.
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Remember Adam
and Eve disobeyed God
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but God came looking for
them to socialise with them
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in the call of the
evening and when He found
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that they had disobeyed
Him, He didn't cast them off
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in fact, He did a
very charitable thing.
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Remember He covered
them with animal skins.
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But again that is because
God is love and you see--
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I think it illustrates
the community aspect,
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the socialisation
and also the, you know,
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it's not like you
disobey and God cast you off.
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You exercise your
religious liberty,
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there is a consequence
if you do it wrongly,
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but God is still
there to support you.
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Again and this is connected
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to the foundations
for religious liberty.
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Meaning thought, conscience
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and of course
the power to decide.
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Because if not then
we are not human being
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and this is the reason
why these are to be protected.
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If the individual
liberty is like a sacred task
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actually we could go
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take a look at
the institutions--
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I mean, the
constitutions as we--
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We might do that
in another program.
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Yes.
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But several constitution
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I mean, very clearly state that
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religious liberty is
actually a principle.
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It's not just, you
see, this is important
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because people
rank values, you know.
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But religious
liberty because it is
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grounded on human dignity
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which is a
principle sets it aside.
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And no wonder if you
take the case of America
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and probably this
is one of the reason
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why this nation has
such a fascinating history.
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Religious liberty is
the primordial freedom
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or the first
freedom here in this nation.
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Now, the question is,
it has been challenged,
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misinterpreted may
be miss-- you know,
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there was a misperception
of what religious liberty
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really is but still
it is part of the fabric
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of this nation.
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People came here
because they wanted to be free,
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create a society.
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Well, some of them
correct, create a society
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whereby they could
choose to freely worship,
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to freely believe or
not believe, you know, so--
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You know, you and I
both know American history
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and we need to
separate sometimes the ideal
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from the reality.
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Correct.
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What I think is the unique thing
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about United States.
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Not so much that
the narrative was always
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consistent with the
ideal but that the ideal was
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always been
there and it's written
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into the constitution.
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And religious
liberty is a prime value.
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It wasn't always
the prime directive
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on the settlement.
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Correct.
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What I think is they
derived it from Europe
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and on this
program many people heard
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they go about the
civil war in England
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where religion
became that prime thing.
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I think that's when it
was planted here might so.
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Well, the history of this nation
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I think definitely is
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and exclusively
woven with this idea
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for search for freedom
and it is not by chance
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that one of the first
or the primordial freedom
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was precisely religious liberty.
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Absolutely. Oh, no.
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No, it was very calculated.
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That has to-- So
back to the principle.
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What could say to set summation?
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Religious liberty,
how would you express it
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just in few words for today
not historical or contrary?
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Religious liberty
is a God given right
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based on human dignity
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and that is actually a freedom
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that is so intimately
linked to every human being
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because it is connected
to the most intimate freedom,
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freedom of conscience.
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If I do not have
religious liberty
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then I am deprive of
being the human being
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I am supposed to be.
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So this is extremely important,
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this is why this
freedom has to be protected,
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promoted and adopted by the way.
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Not just through
the constitutions
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as a letter but more importantly
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adopted by every
nation and every person.
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I have taken some
intellectual satisfaction
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in watching the debate
between some prominence,
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prominent cynics
and those of faith
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and of course
the battle argument
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goes backwards and forwards.
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But something that
everyone stumbles on
00:11:44.90\00:11:46.90
and the scientist
more than most is,
00:11:46.94\00:11:48.60
how do you explain the Big Bang?
00:11:48.64\00:11:50.84
What came first?
00:11:50.87\00:11:53.17
And in some ways it's
not a total answer to say
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that God came first.
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There is always
the what before God
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but we can't know that.
00:11:58.98\00:12:01.18
But when we talk
about religious liberty
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which of course came
from God we need to realise
00:12:03.25\00:12:05.95
that it is a prime cause.
00:12:05.99\00:12:09.22
There is nothing more
important other than God himself
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because liberty, the
principle of free choice
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flowed naturally
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from the
Creator to His creature,
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to His creatures, us.
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And if the something
that distinguishes us
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from the inanimate
objects that whiz through space
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it is that God imparted
part of His very character in us
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and it's exemplified
through showing choice,
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judgement and of course
proven through good choices.
00:12:37.39\00:12:42.22
Proving to worship
and acknowledge God,
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our Creator.
00:12:44.63\00:12:47.13
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:47.16\00:12:50.43