Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000303A
|
00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider"
00:24 This is the program bringing you news, 00:26 views and information and analysis 00:28 on religious liberty events around the world and of course, 00:31 also in the United States. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed editor of "Liberty Magazine". 00:37 And my guest on the program is Ganoune Diop, 00:41 that's a name I think our viewers 00:44 are gonna be more familiar with. 00:46 You've recently been appointed as Director of Public Affairs 00:50 in religious liberty for the Seventh-day Adventist church. 00:53 That is correct. 00:54 Although you're not new to me, 00:56 we've been working together for several years 00:58 but you've been now placed in that position 01:01 and of course, just at this time 01:03 every thing is heating up around the world, isn't it? 01:05 Religious liberty is the topic. 01:07 Absolutely. Not this in the US actually. 01:11 More so I think around the world. 01:12 I can even say it has been the case for a long time. 01:16 The question now is, there is a more focus, 01:19 and probably discussion on a religious liberty. 01:23 But it has been always one of the major issues 01:27 that every nation actually is facing. 01:30 Yeah, absolutely. 01:31 I've often said on this program before when you think about 01:34 if nobody is against religious liberty, are they? 01:37 Have you ever met any one oppose to it. 01:38 Actually, yes.2 01:40 In the practice but I mean in theory. 01:41 Yeah, well, in theory people would like to be 01:45 free definitely and of course, 01:48 that means freedom to choose 01:50 what to believe and what not to believe. 01:52 What you're getting at the definition. 01:53 This is what I want to discuss as it truly is. 01:57 There is all sorts of regimes and groups that 02:00 would love to restrict it including many people of faith. 02:03 They want to restrict someone else's 02:04 practice of faith. 02:06 But as a concept, you know, nobody is against it. 02:08 It used to be in the constitution 02:11 of the Soviet Union. 02:12 For example, the country that did not really 02:14 in the real world grant to the freedom of religion. 02:17 In that sense we can say that religious freedom is 02:20 nearly in every constitution. 02:22 Actually every country I visit, this is one the first thing 02:25 that I do is to go to their constitution 02:29 and look what they say about 02:30 religious freedom in beautiful words. 02:33 Now that is the idea but in reality 02:35 though there is always a discrepancy. 02:37 This is what I want to talk about it. 02:38 It's a great concept but the distinction 02:42 is how do they define it. 02:44 Everybody says religious liberty 02:45 but they mean many different things from it. 02:48 What do you mean when you say 02:51 "I'm director of religious liberty 02:53 from our church?" 02:54 What is the-- what resonates with you? 02:57 Is it constitutional, 02:58 is it historic or is it Biblical? 03:02 All the above. 03:04 It is historical in a sense that well, you know, 03:08 the foundations for religious freedom 03:10 is actually God himself. 03:14 It goes back to the idea that human beings 03:18 are created in the image of God. 03:21 And being created in the image of God, 03:23 that means the humans are endowed with infinite dignity 03:28 and one of the distinctive characteristic 03:30 of being a human person or human being, 03:34 is the ability, you know, the capacity to make choices. 03:39 But you cannot make choices if you're not free, 03:43 so human dignity is the foundation, 03:46 like the principle that sustains this idea. 03:50 When God created humanity, 03:55 one of the essential component of that creation 03:58 is freedom of choice, why? 04:00 Well, it's the-- I'm sorry 04:01 but it's the original story in Eden, doesn't it? 04:03 Yes, absolutely so. 04:05 You can think of it negatively 04:06 as a test but it was really a chance for them 04:09 to exercise their choice, wasn't it? 04:10 I think it was even the foundation of a covenant, 04:13 not just a test because you see, that God uh, 04:17 probably one of the most magnificent 04:18 revelation of God in the Bible, 04:20 in particular, is that "God is love." 04:22 Now if God is love that means 04:24 that God create at the same time freedom. 04:29 It goes together. 04:30 The reason being, love cannot be forced. 04:34 In order for love to flourish, 04:36 it has to be a personal decision, a willful, 04:42 I mean, covenant is impossible without love, 04:45 therefore, so God created freedom 04:47 as He created humans in His image. 04:49 Well, I don't think a covenant is impossible without love 04:52 but it's impossible with out respect. 04:53 But God wants more then respect, 04:55 what's the Ten Commandments ask for. 04:58 But even after that on- 05:00 you know, "it's in your heart," says God. 05:01 You can do it. 05:03 I think it need, love makes it, 05:04 the covenant particularly 05:08 important and powerful, isn't it? 05:10 Very true, but I was referring specifically 05:12 to the primordial covenant between God and humans 05:16 because I mean, even if you look 05:18 at the story of Israel, the way God revealed 05:21 what He is expecting humanity to know. 05:25 One was, God is one, you know, 05:28 and the second thing in Deuteronomy Chapter 6 is, 05:31 okay, "Hear, O Israel! 05:34 The... "The Lord, your God is one." 05:36 One, the famous Shema but then right after it's said 05:40 "You shall love the Lord," you see again, 05:42 "with all you heart." 05:44 So love is basically the pre-condition 05:47 for the covenant to be possible. 05:49 But there is a-- you play, not the devil's advocate but... 05:52 Please don't do that... 05:54 But, you know, you show love. 05:56 Yes. 05:57 I mean, how will we reconcile that? 05:59 I know some of the skeptics of our time 06:02 look at that and say, "You're commanded to be good, 06:05 you're commanded to be obedient, 06:06 you're commanded to love." 06:10 You can't say you must love me. 06:12 Well, no this is not a legislation of morality. 06:15 That's not the idea but God created a condition 06:20 through which genuine living together is possible. 06:24 And the covenant in particular, 06:27 we were created to fellowship with God 06:30 and that fellowship cannot be coercion. 06:34 This is why the idea of freedom is so important here 06:37 because if I'm free to choose, 06:40 now just think about the declarations in the Bible. 06:44 "Choose today whom you want to," you know, etc, etc... 06:48 Why will you choose death? "Choose life." 06:50 Yes, and Jesus also telling His disciples, 06:53 you know, especially at the time 06:55 when some of His followers left him, 06:59 he turned to the others and say, 07:01 "Would you not go, you too?" 07:03 And then Peter, of course, respect, value other, 07:06 you know, I mean, "To whom shall we go to? 07:07 Well, he said, you know, "Who else do we go to? 07:08 Yes, "You've the words of life." 07:10 And so forth and so on. 07:11 But again-- so it is important for God 07:16 and this is inscribed in the law, 07:18 I mean, the Biblical law, 07:21 "Choose," and Jesus reiterated that, you know, 07:25 giving again this is why we cannot tell people 07:29 you have to love me 07:31 because then it becomes coercion, 07:33 then it's not a voluntary decision 07:37 or act anymore. 07:38 So this is why it's very important. 07:40 So freedom is an essential component 07:44 for what it means to be human, you know, and again this is 07:48 what I said earlier, it's grounded on human dignity. 07:52 If I lose my freedom, it is as if some one 07:56 is trampling my human dignity. 07:59 It goes together. 08:02 Now it is easier to force people, like, 08:05 some government will, you know, and regulatory religion... 08:08 Some religions on occasion. Absolutely. 08:10 It seems easier because it provides an illusion, 08:15 sense of, okay, we control things. 08:18 But human beings have this ingrained quest for freedom 08:23 and nothing can ultimately stifle it, 08:26 even if you subjugate people group, okay, 08:29 for decades, may be even centuries, 08:32 sooner or later some thing in the human spirit 08:35 is going to resurrect some what or you know, rise... 08:40 Well, yes, I agree with you, 08:41 you are getting on to another topic. 08:43 But I have all the theories, 08:44 I've not observed repressive regimes. 08:46 There's been plenty in my life time 08:48 and your life time. 08:50 I think it is possible to have repression 08:52 there is no raising up against because it destroys 08:55 the human spirit and then just it becomes 08:58 less and less human. 09:01 But if, usually they collapse when they're gonna 09:05 get a little freedom and then this bottled up 09:07 need-to-make choices becomes repressible. 09:09 But I don't believe that sooner or later 09:12 it will come up if it's very repressive 09:14 as long as the repressions kept down. 09:17 But that's the problem with sin, isn't it? 09:19 Sin keeps you on the level where you don't even know 09:21 your potential and when the gospel comes 09:24 and the truth that you are talking about, 09:26 when that's given to people, 09:27 yes there's no holding someone back there. 09:29 True. 09:30 But even historically though, 09:31 even when you look at secular history, why is it? 09:34 What is it in the nation, 09:37 I mean, I'm talking about now totalitarian regime 09:40 that sooner or later, let us look at history, 09:44 no nation has been able to oppress people forever. 09:48 When you look at the history, 09:50 the succession of nations, there was a time 09:53 the world power was Egypt. 09:56 Why did it disappear? 09:57 After Egypt we had the Assyrians, 10:01 I mean, world power dominating the, you know. 10:05 And then you have the Medes and the Persians... 10:07 ..have been collapse... 10:09 its controls, weakens. 10:11 And when it weakens, then the light comes in... 10:13 Yeah, but the question is why does it weaken? 10:17 You see again... 10:18 Because I think it has second thoughts. 10:20 Like I say, go with Gorbachev 10:24 and these are the groups 10:25 when they allow a little in then it's unstoppable. 10:28 Until that point I think unfortunately people 10:31 can lose sight of their God given potential. 10:34 And you know, one of my theories, 10:37 is that it's not just because they loosen 10:42 that this is happening... 10:44 I know you got it the other way around. 10:45 They have to loosen it. 10:46 But that's a reasonable argument. 10:48 Human spirit, you know, like I mean, again 10:50 when we think about, 10:52 I mean, this mighty powerful nations, 10:54 you know, dominating the world and after the Babylonians, 10:57 the Medes and the Persians, Greece 10:59 I mean, and then the Romans, 11:01 you know, I mean, what happened, 11:03 the Byzantine empire and then the Ottoman empire, 11:07 I mean, of course, the Mongols in between and so forth. 11:11 And every nation, who would have thought 11:15 that one day imperialistic powers 11:17 would recede, you know, some what there was a time, 11:21 for example, people used to say, 11:23 "Well, the sun doesn't set in Great Britain." 11:25 "On the British empire." Some thing like that. 11:27 So what happened? So again, I think... 11:30 Japanese on bicycles, came across the water 11:34 there to Singapore and the charade was over. 11:37 So it wasn't an empire of repression. 11:40 Yeah, but I think the point connected to our topic 11:44 is that freedom is really important 11:46 to the human spirit. 11:47 Oh, absolutely. There is no question. 11:48 And we are created with the striving after freedom. 11:52 It's part of our DNA to the desire to be free. 11:56 I mean, even-- and I did not mention slavery, 11:59 you know, what to broke the back of that, you know... 12:06 Well, I think that's plainer because it was religion. 12:09 In England it was William Wilberforce, 12:11 in the United States 12:13 the evolutionists were Christians. 12:15 It was a Christian sense ability. 12:17 Yeah, it is true and that was 12:20 one of the admirable moment in the history of Christianity. 12:23 Yes, Christian traditions have been 12:26 part of the problem, historically speaking. 12:29 And aberrant... 12:30 But since, and I'm thinking about 12:33 the reformation in particular, 12:34 every Christian tradition comes to restore, 12:39 some thing that was lost in original, 12:42 well, from the message of Jesus truly. 12:46 But what was important here I'm thinking about 12:49 they Quakers because the people 12:51 the group in London, you know, that started to-- 12:57 I mean, the abolitionists movement, 13:01 there was a group of twelve people. 13:03 Eight of them were Quakers, why? 13:05 Because the Quakers believed in equality again... 13:08 Yeah, Quakers, very important part of the U.S. story. 13:11 Let's take a quick break and we'll be back 13:13 to continue this interesting discussion 13:15 with Dr. Ganoune Diop. |
Revised 2015-10-08