Welcome to the "Liberty Insider"
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This is the
program bringing you news,
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views and
information and analysis
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on religious liberty events
around the world and of course,
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also in the United States.
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My name is Lincoln Steed
editor of "Liberty Magazine".
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And my guest on the
program is Ganoune Diop,
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that's a name I
think our viewers
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are gonna be more familiar with.
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You've recently been appointed
as Director of Public Affairs
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in religious liberty for the
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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That is correct.
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Although you're not new to me,
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we've been working
together for several years
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but you've been now
placed in that position
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and of course, just at this time
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every thing is heating up
around the world, isn't it?
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Religious liberty is the topic.
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Absolutely. Not
this in the US actually.
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More so I think
around the world.
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I can even say it has
been the case for a long time.
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The question now is,
there is a more focus,
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and probably discussion
on a religious liberty.
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But it has been always
one of the major issues
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that every nation
actually is facing.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I've often said on this program
before when you think about
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if nobody is against
religious liberty, are they?
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Have you ever met
any one oppose to it.
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Actually, yes.2
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In the practice
but I mean in theory.
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Yeah, well, in theory
people would like to be
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free definitely and of course,
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that means freedom to choose
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what to believe and
what not to believe.
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What you're
getting at the definition.
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This is what I want to
discuss as it truly is.
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There is all sorts of
regimes and groups that
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would love to restrict it
including many people of faith.
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They want to
restrict someone else's
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practice of faith.
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But as a concept, you
know, nobody is against it.
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It used to be
in the constitution
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of the Soviet Union.
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For example, the
country that did not really
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in the real world grant
to the freedom of religion.
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In that sense we can say
that religious freedom is
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nearly in every constitution.
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Actually every country I visit,
this is one the first thing
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that I do is to go
to their constitution
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and look what they say about
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religious freedom
in beautiful words.
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Now that is the
idea but in reality
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though there is
always a discrepancy.
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This is what I
want to talk about it.
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It's a great
concept but the distinction
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is how do they define it.
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Everybody says religious liberty
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but they mean many
different things from it.
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What do you mean when you say
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"I'm director of
religious liberty
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from our church?"
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What is the-- what
resonates with you?
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Is it constitutional,
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is it historic
or is it Biblical?
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All the above.
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It is historical in a
sense that well, you know,
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the foundations
for religious freedom
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is actually God himself.
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It goes back to the
idea that human beings
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are created in the image of God.
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And being created
in the image of God,
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that means the humans are
endowed with infinite dignity
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and one of the
distinctive characteristic
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of being a human
person or human being,
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is the ability, you know,
the capacity to make choices.
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But you cannot make
choices if you're not free,
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so human dignity
is the foundation,
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like the principle
that sustains this idea.
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When God created humanity,
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one of the essential
component of that creation
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is freedom of choice, why?
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Well, it's the-- I'm sorry
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but it's the original
story in Eden, doesn't it?
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Yes, absolutely so.
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You can think of it negatively
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as a test but it was
really a chance for them
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to exercise their
choice, wasn't it?
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I think it was even the
foundation of a covenant,
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not just a test
because you see, that God uh,
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probably one of
the most magnificent
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revelation of God in the Bible,
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in particular, is
that "God is love."
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Now if God is love that means
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that God create at
the same time freedom.
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It goes together.
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The reason being,
love cannot be forced.
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In order for love to flourish,
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it has to be a
personal decision, a willful,
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I mean, covenant is
impossible without love,
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therefore, so
God created freedom
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as He created
humans in His image.
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Well, I don't think a covenant
is impossible without love
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but it's
impossible with out respect.
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But God wants more then respect,
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what's the Ten
Commandments ask for.
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But even after that on-
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you know, "it's in
your heart," says God.
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You can do it.
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I think it need, love makes it,
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the covenant particularly
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important and
powerful, isn't it?
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Very true, but I was
referring specifically
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to the primordial
covenant between God and humans
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because I mean, even if you look
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at the story of
Israel, the way God revealed
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what He is
expecting humanity to know.
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One was, God is one, you know,
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and the second thing in
Deuteronomy Chapter 6 is,
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okay, "Hear, O Israel!
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The... "The
Lord, your God is one."
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One, the famous Shema but
then right after it's said
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"You shall love the
Lord," you see again,
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"with all you heart."
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So love is
basically the pre-condition
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for the covenant to be possible.
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But there is a-- you play,
not the devil's advocate but...
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Please don't do that...
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But, you know, you show love.
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Yes.
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I mean, how will
we reconcile that?
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I know some of the
skeptics of our time
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look at that and say,
"You're commanded to be good,
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you're commanded to be obedient,
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you're commanded to love."
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You can't say you must love me.
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Well, no this is not a
legislation of morality.
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That's not the idea
but God created a condition
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through which genuine
living together is possible.
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And the covenant in particular,
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we were created to
fellowship with God
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and that
fellowship cannot be coercion.
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This is why the idea of
freedom is so important here
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because if I'm free to choose,
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now just think about the
declarations in the Bible.
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"Choose today whom you
want to," you know, etc, etc...
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Why will you choose
death? "Choose life."
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Yes, and Jesus also
telling His disciples,
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you know, especially at the time
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when some of His
followers left him,
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he turned to the others and say,
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"Would you not go, you too?"
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And then Peter, of
course, respect, value other,
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you know, I mean,
"To whom shall we go to?
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Well, he said, you
know, "Who else do we go to?
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Yes, "You've the words of life."
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And so forth and so on.
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But again-- so it
is important for God
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and this is
inscribed in the law,
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I mean, the Biblical law,
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"Choose," and Jesus
reiterated that, you know,
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giving again this is
why we cannot tell people
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you have to love me
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because then it
becomes coercion,
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then it's not a
voluntary decision
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or act anymore.
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So this is why
it's very important.
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So freedom is an
essential component
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for what it means to be human,
you know, and again this is
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what I said earlier, it's
grounded on human dignity.
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If I lose my
freedom, it is as if some one
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is trampling my human dignity.
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It goes together.
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Now it is easier
to force people, like,
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some government will, you
know, and regulatory religion...
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Some religions on
occasion. Absolutely.
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It seems easier because
it provides an illusion,
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sense of, okay,
we control things.
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But human beings have this
ingrained quest for freedom
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and nothing can
ultimately stifle it,
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even if you
subjugate people group, okay,
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for decades, may
be even centuries,
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sooner or later some
thing in the human spirit
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is going to resurrect
some what or you know, rise...
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Well, yes, I agree with you,
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you are getting
on to another topic.
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But I have all the theories,
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I've not observed
repressive regimes.
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There's been
plenty in my life time
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and your life time.
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I think it is
possible to have repression
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there is no raising up
against because it destroys
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the human spirit
and then just it becomes
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less and less human.
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But if, usually they
collapse when they're gonna
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get a little freedom
and then this bottled up
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need-to-make
choices becomes repressible.
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But I don't believe
that sooner or later
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it will come up if
it's very repressive
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as long as the
repressions kept down.
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But that's the
problem with sin, isn't it?
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Sin keeps you on the
level where you don't even know
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your potential and
when the gospel comes
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and the truth that
you are talking about,
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when that's given to people,
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yes there's no
holding someone back there.
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True.
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But even historically though,
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even when you look at
secular history, why is it?
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What is it in the nation,
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I mean, I'm talking
about now totalitarian regime
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that sooner or later,
let us look at history,
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no nation has been able
to oppress people forever.
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When you look at the history,
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the succession of
nations, there was a time
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the world power was Egypt.
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Why did it disappear?
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After Egypt we
had the Assyrians,
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I mean, world power
dominating the, you know.
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And then you have the
Medes and the Persians...
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..have been collapse...
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its controls, weakens.
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And when it weakens,
then the light comes in...
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Yeah, but the
question is why does it weaken?
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You see again...
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Because I think it
has second thoughts.
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Like I say, go with Gorbachev
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and these are the groups
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when they allow a little
in then it's unstoppable.
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Until that point I
think unfortunately people
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can lose sight of
their God given potential.
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And you know,
one of my theories,
00:10:34.90\00:10:37.87
is that it's not
just because they loosen
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that this is happening...
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I know you got it
the other way around.
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They have to loosen it.
00:10:45.37\00:10:46.94
But that's a
reasonable argument.
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Human spirit, you
know, like I mean, again
00:10:48.34\00:10:50.71
when we think about,
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I mean, this
mighty powerful nations,
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you know, dominating the
world and after the Babylonians,
00:10:54.52\00:10:57.39
the Medes and
the Persians, Greece
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I mean, and then the Romans,
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you know, I mean, what happened,
00:11:01.39\00:11:03.96
the Byzantine empire
and then the Ottoman empire,
00:11:03.99\00:11:07.40
I mean, of course, the
Mongols in between and so forth.
00:11:07.43\00:11:11.80
And every nation,
who would have thought
00:11:11.83\00:11:15.10
that one day
imperialistic powers
00:11:15.14\00:11:17.87
would recede, you know,
some what there was a time,
00:11:17.91\00:11:21.18
for example, people used to say,
00:11:21.21\00:11:23.38
"Well, the sun
doesn't set in Great Britain."
00:11:23.41\00:11:25.35
"On the British
empire." Some thing like that.
00:11:25.38\00:11:27.62
So what happened?
So again, I think...
00:11:27.65\00:11:30.12
Japanese on
bicycles, came across the water
00:11:30.15\00:11:34.02
there to Singapore
and the charade was over.
00:11:34.06\00:11:37.49
So it wasn't an
empire of repression.
00:11:37.53\00:11:40.13
Yeah, but I think the
point connected to our topic
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is that freedom
is really important
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to the human spirit.
00:11:46.17\00:11:47.50
Oh, absolutely.
There is no question.
00:11:47.54\00:11:48.87
And we are created with
the striving after freedom.
00:11:48.90\00:11:52.27
It's part of our DNA
to the desire to be free.
00:11:52.31\00:11:56.18
I mean, even-- and I
did not mention slavery,
00:11:56.21\00:11:59.88
you know, what to broke
the back of that, you know...
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Well, I think that's
plainer because it was religion.
00:12:06.52\00:12:09.39
In England it was
William Wilberforce,
00:12:09.42\00:12:11.63
in the United States
00:12:11.66\00:12:12.99
the
evolutionists were Christians.
00:12:13.03\00:12:15.83
It was a
Christian sense ability.
00:12:15.86\00:12:17.47
Yeah, it is true and that was
00:12:17.50\00:12:20.74
one of the admirable moment
in the history of Christianity.
00:12:20.77\00:12:23.84
Yes, Christian
traditions have been
00:12:23.87\00:12:26.88
part of the problem,
historically speaking.
00:12:26.91\00:12:29.51
And aberrant...
00:12:29.54\00:12:30.88
But since, and
I'm thinking about
00:12:30.91\00:12:32.98
the reformation in particular,
00:12:33.01\00:12:34.75
every Christian
tradition comes to restore,
00:12:34.78\00:12:39.65
some thing that
was lost in original,
00:12:39.69\00:12:42.92
well, from the
message of Jesus truly.
00:12:42.96\00:12:46.39
But what was important
here I'm thinking about
00:12:46.43\00:12:49.16
they Quakers because the people
00:12:49.20\00:12:51.67
the group in London,
you know, that started to--
00:12:51.70\00:12:57.07
I mean, the
abolitionists movement,
00:12:57.11\00:13:01.64
there was a
group of twelve people.
00:13:01.68\00:13:03.01
Eight of them were Quakers, why?
00:13:03.04\00:13:05.31
Because the Quakers
believed in equality again...
00:13:05.35\00:13:08.48
Yeah, Quakers, very important
part of the U.S. story.
00:13:08.52\00:13:11.62
Let's take a quick
break and we'll be back
00:13:11.65\00:13:13.39
to continue this
interesting discussion
00:13:13.42\00:13:15.12
with Dr. Ganoune Diop.
00:13:15.16\00:13:17.26